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Friction Modifiers in Automatic trans fluid?

What is the action of a friction modifier in ATF?


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greenjeepster

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In an effort to prevent another thread from spinning off track I am moving the conversation to alternative fuels. A comment was made about the Friction Modifiers in ATF being to increase friction in the transmission and grip of the clutches, and because of that friction increase, it will destroy the Injection Pump if used as fuel in a Multi Fuel.

My argument is that friction modifiers do the opposite and reduce friction in the transmission. They may not be the best thing in the world to burn, but they will not hurt they injection pump because of increased friction.

So this is the topic for debate. What is the action of the Friction Modifier in ATF that allows it to make shifting smoother?


Attached sources to help you make up your mind:

What are Friction Modifiers?

Friction modifier - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Effect of Friction Modifiers on the Low-Speed Friction Characteristics of Automatic Transmission Fluids Observed with Scanning Force Microscopy
 
Oh boy, we get to vote on something here - now will that make it so?

Ok, the argument on my side was I read something in another forum by a guy who seemed to know what he was talking about, and he said ATF might damage an IP. Jeepster said they only increase lubricity, but I found this:

Friction modifiers for improved anti-shudder performance and high static friction in transmission fluids

and noted under the section headed Background of the Invention, it stated "In the automatic transmission marketplace, where there is rapid engineering change driven by the desire to reduce weight and increase transmission capacity, there is a desire for automatic transmission fluids that exhibit a high static coefficient of friction for improved clutch holding capacity."

The point I was trying to make was ATF, with the modifiers that can both increase lubrication, but also have abrasive properties (ever fill a crankcase of a nasty motor with ATF for a few minutes to clean it up?), which over time, may wear down metal-to-metal contact areas in an IP and therefore increase tolerances causing the IP to fail prematurely.
 

islandguydon

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The term "Friction Modifier" is the answer. It modify-es the friction so I would say its more slippery for a better word.

HMMMMMMMM, maybe I can find a few better uses for this,lol
 

greenjeepster

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Like I said in the other thread... A patent application isn't proof. Anything can be patented..

To simplify:

At low pressure the friction modifier increases slippage, under high pressure or heat situations it looses it's slick characteristic and returns to that of the original fluid. Under no situation does it increase friction in a fluid.

This demonstrates it well.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yE53V0rYmZE[/media]
 

nf6x

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The term "Friction Modifier" is the answer. It modify-es the friction so I would say its more slippery for a better word.
Sand also modifies friction, but it doesn't make oil slipperier. Just the term "friction modifier" tells us nothing. Modification may be either an increase or a decrease, and it may not even be the same under varying conditions. The answer lies in determining what the specific friction modifiers in ATF do, particularly when they're pumped through an IP and an injector.
 
Sand also modifies friction, but it doesn't make oil slipperier. Just the term "friction modifier" tells us nothing. Modification may be either an increase or a decrease, and it may not even be the same under varying conditions. The answer lies in determining what the specific friction modifiers in ATF do, particularly when they're pumped through an IP and an injector.
Could not have said it any better myself.
Here's a page talking about how dispersants in ATF increase friction:

Science Links Japan | Effects of Additives of ATF and Components of Friction Material for AT on .MU.-v Characteristics.

You'll notice the succinimide listed as a dispersal agent is chemically a class of amides. In the friction modifiers, there two amines listed. Anyone who knows organic chemistry knows an amide is nothing more than an amine with a carbonyl group attached, so therefore, the dispersal agents are in themselves a class of friction modifiers.

I also found a blog where a young man explains it quite well:

"Before you can understand how friction modifiers function, it is important to understand how "wet" clutches perform.

In a wet clutch arrangement, there are three stages of engagement. During the first stage, the clutch is not in contact with the pressure plate or other metal plate. We will use an automatic transmission torque converter as an example. Anyone who has driven auto trans cars with lockup torque converters for a while has probably experienced a phenomenon known as "lockup shudder" or "torque converter shudder". Shudder is caused during torque converter clutch lockup by burnt fluid or fluid wich has exhausted all of it's friction modifers. The result is a chattering feeling when the torque converter goes into lockup mode. I will now attempt to explain the physics of wet clutch engagement.

As I have already mentioned, during the first stage the clutch is not in contact with it's mating surface. The fluid itself, however, is acting as a viscous coupling, causing a partial engagement. A side effect of this is heat, and I believe you all know that heat is the killer of automotive oils.

The second stage is very simlar to the first. At this point the clutch is very close, possible within thousandths of an inch, from it's mating surface. The viscous coupling is now more effective, but the pressure and shear load on the fluid are also higher, and the result is increased heat.

During the third stage, the clutch actually contacts it's mating surface and positive engagement is reached. The shear load of the fluid has been overcome and has either extruded itself outside of the clutch material or, depending on the application, has partly or entirely extruded itself through a porous friction material, thus exiting the engagement area of the clutch.

Now that we have an understanging of wet clutch engagement, lets see how that plays out in the real world. If a fluid has lost a substantial amount of the friction modifier, the shear of the fluid will be inconsistant accross the engagement surface and the clutch will briefly alternate between full engagement (stage 3) and viscous engagement (stage 2). The as power through the assembly varies, wich is connected in our case to a vehicle that we are inside of, a bucking of sorts is perceptable to it's occupants as power transmitted to the wheels is momentarely interrupted and regained.

In an application like a limited slip rear end, similar phenomena occur but in a slightly different manner. Because the clutch plates are constantly loaded with heavy springs, in theory they should always remain in stage 3 of lockup. If that were the case however, they would never slip. So the purpose of a friction modifier in a rear end is to ensure that the transition from S3 to S2 and back again during cornering etc. is smoothe. Therefor chatter occurs in much the same way it does in our torque converter clutch scenerio.

So the answer to your question if friction modifiers enhance friction or reduce it? The answer is there is no answer. Depending on what the application calls for and how it is engineered, they can do either. So as Alex said, it does just that; modifies friction."
 
In that same web page it also mentions how the metallic detergents in ATF increase friction, so bottom line, I won't be running it through any of my IP pumps in any of my 6 deuces, 6 CUCVs, or my '06 2500HD, for that matter.
 

greenjeepster

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Carl_in_NH, islandguydon, jwaller

I will make you three the same deal I made Akon

I will concede this if you can find a source which states that a Friction Modifier INCREASES friction. The source can't be from a forum or random web page... must be from either a manufacturer of additive or a transmission/automobile maker or a lab which specializes in this type of chemical. Basically no forum posts etc.
 

73m819

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Think we are talking apples and oranges here, motor oil has friction Modifiers to DECREASE friction, ATF has friction Modifiers to increase friction, two totally different oils for two totally different applications and end results
 

Carl_in_NH

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The original question (and poll) was specific to ATF; I believe in this case the modifier is intended to increase friction. I will snoop around and see if I can find an article which will satisfy your demand for an authoritative source.

But, the statements about modification of friction are indeed related to the application of the fluid; engine oil wants less friction, ATF, I believe, wants more. That makes for a very good reason not to mix all this stuff together in a barrel in your back yard and expect a given level of performance from it for a particular application.

It's another reason I burn regular diesel fuel, too; waste oil is (most often) just too unknown a mix of stuff to run through my IP. I don't drive the truck enough miles to justify the potential damage from 'free' fuel.
 

chuck-10

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the friction Modifiers in atf are for the clutches in a transmission.There are BRASS bushings in a auto trans that last for hundreds of thousands of miles that some times still look new when taken apart.Im sure your IP will not mind atf
 

Carl_in_NH

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There are BRASS bushings in a auto trans that last for hundreds of thousands of miles that some times still look new when taken apart
There are - and yet none of these bushings are likely to run with the same small clearances found in the high pressure path of the IP. Does it make a difference? Methinks it might...
 

ODdave

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Sooo, Ford & gm have a friction modifier that is added to the rear axle of a limited slip diff to reduce chatter, so in theory it makes it more slick....right?

Now when you add the same stuff to an automatic trans that has a slight slip/delayed engagement it helps firm up the shifts in the trans, in theory making the clutches less slippery....right?

Explain this?????

Personaly, I would be more conserned about my tanks getting dipped and having a red fuel in there. I'll run atf in my stuff. Have before with no ill effects.
 

Carl_in_NH

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when you add the same stuff
That's the point - it's not the same stuff - just a 'friction modifier'. One fluid is slicker, the other has more friction. That's why you can't just go into the auto parts store and buy a 55 gallon drum of 'GP Fluid' and use it for all applications. Different application, different fluid with different modifiers.
 

ODdave

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That's the point - it's not the same stuff - just a 'friction modifier'. One fluid is slicker, the other has more friction. That's why you can't just go into the auto parts store and buy a 55 gallon drum of 'GP Fluid' and use it for all applications. Different application, different fluid with different modifiers.
The modifier I am talking about is the same, I am asking what is it? If it neither increases or decreases friction, WTH is it? also how could it have an ill effect on the pump?
 

chuck-10

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I know a couple of high performance trans builders for diesel trans that use 30wt motor oil and I know a couple off old school guys that used trans fluid in engine oil to clean engines.
 

Carl_in_NH

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Dave - I don't believe the same modifier would be used in the two different fluids. So, saying the same modifier has two different effects in the two different fluids just isn't likely to be true. The only thing the same, if my understanding is correct (and that's always subject to question), about friction modifiers in ATF and limited slip diff fluid is the name 'friction modifier'. Not the same substance added to the oils at all - each has its own formulation.
 
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