Insane home Water/meth injection...

rustystud said:

Actually patracy they did make a 20:1 compression multifuel engine. So having the pistons shaved would not effect the engines ability to burn all that oil anyway.

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The tractor version was 18:1.

JasonS said:

The tractor version was 18:1.

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Was the tractor version also a multifuel ? If so then you could put in those 18:1 pistons and use a modern turbo and pump up the boost to get some real performance out of this engine !
That is until you blow up the bottom end or heads or both !!!

rustystud said:

Was the tractor version also a multifuel ? If so then you could put in those 18:1 pistons and use a modern turbo and pump up the boost to get some real performance out of this engine !
That is until you blow up the bottom end or heads or both !!!

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The multifuel capability requires the higher 22:1 compression. The tractor engine is otherwise very similar and many tractor re-builders use the military pistons to make it easier to start. I guess what worries me (and why I didn't pursue higher horsepower) are the reports of cracks on the edge of the bowl in the multifuel. Maybe, this engine just isn't suited to large increases in horsepower.

rustystud said:

Was the tractor version also a multifuel ? If so then you could put in those 18:1 pistons and use a modern turbo and pump up the boost to get some real performance out of this engine !
That is until you blow up the bottom end or heads or both !!!

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No, and the pistons are different. I had posted up a pic a while back of it. I also believe the heads are slightly different as well. The multifuel piston/engine has a "eyelash" cut into the bowl where the injector sprays in at that helps promote the swirl combustion effect. I'm heading to lunch right now, otherwise I'd search through my posts to find the pic.

I will get a 3200 RPM vid next time I am home, for sure.

I have no desire for 300hp or a 6bt, just trying to reduce black smoke. Don't know how many other ways I can say that. Don't think you're reading what I'm saying.

My OM617 is similar to this engine. The exhaust and intake ports are side by side, and the manifolds intertwine. It really sucks for EGT's sake. The EGT's in that thing are always toasty hot. Adding an intercooler to it only dropped temps by 100-200 degrees F. Another issue with adding an IC to this is the same as my OM617 powered Toyota. The radiator is right behind the grill guard. No room! I did a Subaru WRX top mount on the OM617. Sounds like water injection is the way to go. Are you guys injecting distilled water? I can't imagine the minerals in some water sources would be good at all for the cylinders.

Nobody is telling you that the engine won't turn 3200 rpm, what we are telling you, and keep in mind we have all seen this time and again, is that you ARE going to sling a rod through the side of your block doing so eventually. These engines had a redline of 2650 for a reason. Several guys have had rods blow running on the highway at 23-2400rpm. I don't run mine over 2300. You have been warned.

Jeepsinker said:

Nobody is telling you that the engine won't turn 3200 rpm, what we are telling you, and keep in mind we have all seen this time and again, is that you ARE going to sling a rod through the side of your block doing so eventually. These engines had a redline of 2650 for a reason. Several guys have had rods blow running on the highway at 23-2400rpm. I don't run mine over 2300. You have been warned.

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Meh... the trucks been all over the state of Kansas at 3200 RPM. It has over 20,000 miles on trips like that. It's served its purpose. If it wants to blow up, I'll get another. (The reaction I got from you guys about the 3200 RPM deal gave me a pretty good chuckle.)

Well you must have a really well put together motor there. I wouldn't have thought any one of them would take that for more than a few minutes.
Have you done anything to the bottom end and you just aren't telling us?

Jeepsinker said:

Well you must have a really well put together motor there. I wouldn't have thought any one of them would take that for more than a few minutes.
Have you done anything to the bottom end and you just aren't telling us?

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Maybe it's a lemon?? It was a fairly new motor when I got it. It pretty much just sits now. My good deuce isn't getting cranked up at all. I want my grand kids to take rides in it 50 years from now.

PryoJoe said:

Meh... the trucks been all over the state of Kansas at 3200 RPM. It has over 20,000 miles on trips like that. It's served its purpose. If it wants to blow up, I'll get another. (The reaction I got from you guys about the 3200 RPM deal gave me a pretty good chuckle.)

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There are tractor pullers that run these engines at 3500+rpm with water and meth injection.

Several members have built water injection systems into their duece. The problem they had was either the water was used too quickly or it didn't make enough of a dent in egt's to matter. Now maybe if you spent months experimenting with different nozzles you could find one that works. Also use regular tap water not distilled water. It may be hard for you to wrap your head around but distilled water is very corrosive.

welldigger said:

Also use regular tap water not distilled water. It may be hard for you to wrap your head around but distilled water is very corrosive.

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Can you elaborate? You use distilled water in your cooling system because hard water will plug up the system. Why wouldn't it be the same for the combustion chamber??

EDIT: "Best of all, water costs very little. When using water it‘s important to use distilled water and not tap water. Tap water contains to many minerals and will clog your system over time." Pulled that from http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems....r-Methanol-Injection-System/article_info.html

PryoJoe said:

Can you elaborate? You use distilled water in your cooling system because hard water will plug up the system. Why wouldn't it be the same for the combustion chamber??

EDIT: "Best of all, water costs very little. When using water it‘s important to use distilled water and not tap water. Tap water contains to many minerals and will clog your system over time." Pulled that from http://www.alcoholinjectionsystems....r-Methanol-Injection-System/article_info.html

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This is basic chemistry. Pure water is very unstable. Which is why you will NEVER find pure water in nature. It wants to combine with other molecules to become stable. So when you combine distilled water with antifreeze or methanol it's no longer distilled pure water.

Now in the case of water injection on a diesel I have read methanol shouldn't be mixed in. So if you run just water in the injection system then the distilled water would start corroding the aluminum and steel in the engine. Now if you mixed alcohol then you could use distilled water. I just don't know if mixing alcohol is a good idea.

PryoJoe said:

Meh... the trucks been all over the state of Kansas at 3200 RPM. It has over 20,000 miles on trips like that. It's served its purpose. If it wants to blow up, I'll get another. (The reaction I got from you guys about the 3200 RPM deal gave me a pretty good chuckle.)

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When will you be home again to take and share a video?

What did you do to make it run this rpm?

Have you verified the rpm with anything besides the OEM tachometer?

What speed are you at, at 3200 rpm?

Aside from turning up the fuel (it likely take extra fuel to tach that high), tweaking the governor will allow for higher RPM's as the "governed" speed will not cut fuel until the higher speed is reached.

Distilled water likes to pick up ions. (As in galvanic corrosion) Tap water works just fine. Ethylene/Propylene glycol works as antifreeze and doesn't interfere with combustion on the miniscule scale it is introduced.

Oh, and the reason methanol is bad is the same reason Propane is bad... the MAN hypercycle lights the fire too early in the cycle for it to do anything but lift the heads. The fuel in our engines is a "flaming puddle" on the combustion chamber wall that gets blasted with air from the quench later and burned rapidly. If there is a fuel and air mix already in the chamber, it ignites too early and then the piston is working UP against the bulk of the explosion, instead of being pushed down by it if it had been lit later.


Does this make sense?

3200rpm?! I want to see this!

welldigger said:

This is basic chemistry. Pure water is very unstable. Which is why you will NEVER find pure water in nature. It wants to combine with other molecules to become stable. So when you combine distilled water with antifreeze or methanol it's no longer distilled pure water.

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Distilled water is NOT 18Mohm resistivity de-ionized "pure" water. Further, DI water quickly degrades to plain old water if exposed to the atmosphere which is what you have in most distilled water systems.

I would just like to see a multifuel engine run at 3200 RPM's ! Until I see a verified tach running at 3200 RPM's I'm calling BS on this claim. I know Mr Varns engine runs higher then that, but his engine was machined from a solid steel billet ! From what he has told me, you can run these engines up to about 3000 RPM after you have had the bottom end balanced. That's the crank, rods, pistons, and bolts used. He still uses the factory crank (heavily modified) since it is made from 4140 forged steel. You also must use full groove main and rod bearings, and bump up the oil pressure. He also mentioned valve float. The factory valve springs where not meant to run that high, so you must use stiffer springs. Some day if I live long enough and can find the money, I would love to try and build up a multifuel that can run over 3000 RPM and make over 300HP. Just a dream right now.

Not quite there in this older pic, but you get the idea.

PryoJoe said:

Not quite there in this older pic, but you get the idea.

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We need a video showing a sustained RPM and speed. Anyone can run there engine up and say "they did it" . But the trick is, can you keep it there !

That just makes me cringe. That is well over redline even for the LDS-465-2.