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Cummins NHC 250 vs 6CTA 8.3 opinions

Cdub

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Hey Guys,

Since I've never owned a vehicle with either engine.
I would like you to let us know your experiences with
either engine. Something like this...........

Cummins NHC 250

pros / cons...........(likes or dislikes)


Cummins 6CTA 8.3

pros / cons...........(likes or dislikes)


Lets leave this as open as possible........anything from

Fording
Cold weather starts
Power
Speed
Reliability
Gas mileage
heavy loads
repairs
parts


List anything that comes across your mind about either or both the NHC 250
or the 6CTA 8.3

I'm sure the answers will surprise even the best of us......just have fun with it
and see what kind of answers we come up with.

Cheers,

C'dub
 

BKubu

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NHC-250
PROS -- parts availability, reliability, strong motor (not necessarily stronger than the 6CTA motor, but you get your power from 855 CI's, not the turbo)
CONS -- does not like cold weather (it will always start, but you will need some ether), older design so it is not as efficient fuel-wise

6CTA 8.3
PROS -- about the same power as the NHC-250, but it is produced by a much smaller and more modern power plant, whisper quiet (for those of you who like throaty motors, this one is not the one for you...it is almost as quiet as a Duramax), turbo if you like the whistle (but it is not a whistler like an LDT-465-1 C)
CONS -- parts availability, starts better than the NHC-250 in cold weather but still needs a sniff of ether

I've had both NHC-250-powered trucks (M929A1, M928A1, M932) and 6CTA 8.3-powered trucks (M936A2, M932A2 and now two M925A2s). While I love the 6CTA 8.3 motor, I would suggest that anyone who is interested stick with the NHC-250-powered trucks. This has much to do with parts availability. The parts for these trucks are not readily available. While this is true of all M939 series parts, it is even more the case with any parts that are A2 specific and the motor is one of those items. Beyond the 6CTA 8.3 motor, the A2 has a different cab, different air-intake plumbing, some different exhaust parts, different axles, CTIS parts, and probably some other stuff that I am not thinking about. I know some guys in active service have told me they would choose a straight M939 series truck or an A1 over an A2 any day. This has much to do with the perceived lack of power with the 6CTA motor and the poor CTIS design. With that said, I've owned some brutally strong A2s. I had an M936A2 that literally forced your butt back into the seat as it shifted through the gears. Remember that the M936A2 weighs over 37,000 pounds!

My $.02... :D
 

WillWagner

The Person You Were Warned About As A Child
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Bruce, I say nay on the parts availability. Parts for the C are very easily had. If you need some and can't get any help, please let me know. As for the power, although they are almost the same HP, 250/290, there is no substitute for qubes. Torque is about the same, but I still feel that the 855 will still hang better on a long hard pull then the C. 505 CID, vs NH/NT, 855 CID. 2cents
 

BKubu

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I suppose I shoudl clarify. I meant parts availability on the surplus market. Yes, the 6CTA parts are available...especially since it is a more recent motor and is used in many civilian commercial applications...but it gets pricey going to Cummins or other commercial parts suppliers. Compare that to calling John Winslow or Sam Winer for NHC-250 parts. I will keep your offer in mind if I do need 6CTA parts in the future. Fortunately, my motors are running well at the current time and I don't foresee needing anything other than maintenance items.
 

steelsoldiers

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Not that any of you would do this ;) but as far as bumping up the power goes, the 8.3 CTA would be a better choice. There are already aftermarket injectors, fuel plates, injection pumps, etc... available for the 8.3. You can safely increase the boost 15-20 psi to handle the extra fuel without worrying about head gaskets. The aftercooler will help keep the temps down. The P7100 injection pump is tough and very adjustable.

Usual disclaimer: add boost and EGT gauges before you start tweaking. Anytime you increase power, other parts downstream may suffer (ie the tranny, driveshafts, axles).

All that being said. I plan on keeping mine just as issued, well maybe with the exception of boost and EGT gauges, which should have been issued :)
 

moose

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I was just about to post this exact thread, glad I checked. Thanks to all who contributed and Cdub for posting it. I was hoping that more people that have experience in both or one of the two would give us their 2 cents. I have looked and seen a lot of aftermarket support for the 6cta, Banks even makes a power pack for this motor. I guess it is also used in motorhomes and mid-duty trucks in addition to its commercial uses. I am looking for a m928, and they come with both engines which is why I am interested in what you all think about these 2 engines. Basically, which one would you rather have and why. Thanks again for anyone that contributes.
 

Flat Black

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CTA motor all day every day and dont buy anything from Banks, its over priced junk. There are much better choices out there for ISB and CTA Cummins parts.

Look at the drag racers and sled pullers (running those two motors) and I can promise you NONE of them are running Gale's crap.

There is a replacement for displacement, its called boost. A very mildly built CTA will get you 400hp and 1200 TQ. If that's not enough call Scheid Diesel and open your wallet - a 700hp/ 2000 TQ motor is not far away.

A CTA is not new tech by any means, but newer than the NHC, which is basically BCIII tech from the 70s. A 14 LITER motor making 250hp is a joke. (would you drive a new Honda Accord with 35hp?? - no one else would either) Mechanical CTAs were made into the mid 90s at least and that is the motor you want for sure (Bosch P7100 injection pump). The CTA's may have been made longer and the newer electronic versions (ISC/QSC) are stout as well.

These engines have been used in tons of applications and there are plenty of sources for parts (other than Cummins dealers)

.02
 
Last edited:

emr

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Well alot of opinion, here, and alot of facts, sayin someone would not buy a 35hp honda, is an opinion, if it was a historical and hobby oriented thing the answer is , Yes. the 250 is a bullet proof motor in service a very long time and no major problems in the line in any unit I know of, of truck units that run or ran these, in fact alot are still strong in service, the ct motor is like well bruce said it best, different but very close . The 250 is quite up to the task when in low range just like most military motors, non of the motors we are dealing with are new tech, it is good to remind people what they are getting into, its a hobby. for those working these trucks I would still rather have the 250, but someone else may not....randy
 

wreckerman893

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Having had a 250 that ran away (long story) and almost self-destructed I can tell you that getting parts is not a walk in the park.

I had to buy an engine just to get pistons and liners out of.

I tried several Cummins dealers in Alabama and all of them said that the 250 is an "obsolete" engine and most dealers do not stock and cannot get (from Cummins) parts for it.

I ended up selling the wrecker to a guy that ran a scrapyard and towing service....he told me he had a ton of money in the engine before he got it rebuilt (using his own mechanic).

It can also be a real pain to find an old school diesel mechanic that can work on the 250's and make the run right.

I would go with the newer engine.
 

jaxsof

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400hp and 1200lbft isn’t really too impressive for a 506ci engine you have dumped a ton of money into. you can do that with the 6b, (359ci)if you’re trying to prove something. The NHC, while old, has proven itself a reliable beast. with a little boost(10psi) you’re right at the same hp and more torque(up to 1850lbft). Really, there is no substitute for inches. The parts availability is still tremendous. The N engines were produced well into the 90's(1999), and share a whole lot of parts with the celect, small cam, and plus engines. They were replace d by the ISX, and if you want a racecar, that’s the way to go.(600hp and 2050 lbft) I am not trying to detract from the 6C engines at all, but their replacement is at best been rated at 330hp and 1000lbft. They are truly reliable runners, and have a place in the new GREEN world. Who can knock better mileage, and cleaner air, but like the Ns there won’t be a wealth of future upgrades from Cummins.

WM, sorry you had to part with the wrecker.

I think is I lose the N in the 5-ton I am gonna have to considder an ISX or a 10, 12 or 15L Cat. Sorry, I like the inches. Just doesn't seem to be working as hard
 

moose

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Wow! Thanks for all the good info and opinions. I took a look at Schied and they do have some impressive stuff. It seems to me that it would be easier and cheaper to bump up the power on a 6cta than it would be to buy a turbo and all of the modifications required to make the nhc run correctly with said turbo. Also, I don't know that much about diesels, but I know that I would not drop a turbo on a gas motor that wasn't rebuilt specifically to run a turbo without at least installing different pistons, and making sure that my bottom end components would handle the boost and extra power. A diesel may handle this better than a gas motor, I don't know, but it would make me worry.
 

housemover

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For me it would boil down to use and terrain. If it was to be used as it came from uncle and as a hobby truck I would pick the 8.3 it's a very solid combo with a good auto. But if your working logging, oil feilds or just want power 855 at least a 350 small cam with jakes stock tranny could live if you have sense and you could stop. If you need more power better plan on a tranny change no alternative to torque for work.
 

Trango

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Boulder, CO
There is a replacement for displacement, its called boost. A very mildly built CTA will get you 400hp and 1200 TQ. If that's not enough call Scheid Diesel and open your wallet - a 700hp/ 2000 TQ motor is not far away.
.02
FlatBlack,

If you had a very modest budget to modify a CTA, what would you do to it to turn up the power? I'm already planning on putting a new restrictor plate on it - what else would be on your menu for more power, while maintaining near-stock reliability?

Thanks in advance,
Bob
 

Flat Black

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That motor responds to mods much the way the smaller B (5.9) engines do. To get a good power increase while maintaining drive-ability and reliability (in almost any diesel) you need to look at only three or four things:

Getting plenty of air into the engine - factory intakes, air filters and heads are usually less than ideal. How much work you do here depends on budget and can be as simple as a Big Honkin' Air Filter. (google BHAF) Another option would be larger intake tubes or smoother/cleaner path of existing tubes, though this is not a huge issue for mild power increases. Turbo piping and couplings can also be an issue.

Getting the right amount of fuel for the amount of power you desire - you dont want clouds of black smoke belching out the exhaust but you want more fuel than stock. Most pumps are VERY conservatively tuned in stock form. Several threads on here about simply turning up the fuel in a muti engine and how much difference that makes. With the CTA motor, you most likely have one of the baddest a$$ pumps on the planet - the Bosch P7100. It can be built to support over 1000hp on a B Series Cummins. Everything from grinding the fuel plate (free) to buying a modified one (pretty cheap) to full custom pump builds ($$$) is available. Any reputable diesel shop should be able to do this for you and there is plenty of info on line for DIYers (diesel forums, magazines, etc) Injectors are probably a bit further down the list, but they are not terribly expensive either if you wanted to move up to that later.

Next and probably last is exhaust. Again, not a huge deal for mild power, but unlike gassers, diesels really dont need or use backpressure. The idea is to get rid of spent exhaust gasses as quickly and efficiently as possible. Make sure your exhaust system (including all turbo parts) are in good condition, nothing loose, worn or out of spec). If you want to go to a larger exhaust, it can be a cheap way to free up some horses, in conjunction with the mods above.

With any mods on a diesel you need to monitor EGT or exhaust gas temp and trans temp if you have an auto. This will tell you what your engine is doing in the power department. If you dont have an intercooler or your cooling system is not adequate for your new power level EGT will quickly get out of control. Adding an intercooler can be another way (can be done on the cheap) to free up HP. For Tems: Post turbo you want to stay around 900 - 1000 degrees and pre turbo you want to stay under 1300-1400, though short burst to 1500-1600 should not do any damage.

The article linked below for the 12 valve B Cummins (one budget on each page) will give you some ideas for your CTA.

http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/dodge/1002dp_1994_to_1998_dodge_ram_power_recipes/index.html


On another note, i was not implying that 400hp/1200TQ was difficult or expensive to achieve from a CTA. In fact I would say the exact opposite, those numbers should be pretty easy to achieve. If you really wanted BIG power out of a CTA motor and had the budget 1500-2000hp would not be out of the question, but that is not for discussion here.

EDIT: Brakes and driveline are mentioned below, so I am editing this instead of posting again. Much of what comes out of discussions like this is info taken from other activities (rock crawling, drag racing, sled pulling, one ton show trucks, whatever) Turning up a CTA or building stronger axles is not specific to military trucks. Yes you should have adequate brakes to stop your truck regardless of how much power you have. If the stock brakes are not adequate (and they probably arent), then upgrade. Several companies offer disc kits for 2.5 tons, threads abound on DIY disc conversions and there is a recent thread here about 5 ton disc conversions.

This thread is about the differences between the two motors, not brakes or driveline. I have seem stock 16 splines (2.5t) break pretty easily rock crawling (old and brittle, not too much HP). I have also seen 600-800hp rock buggies on 44-49" tires beat the $hit out of built 2.5t axles and not break them. If you are breaking axles, transmissions or transfer cases in mildly turned up 5 ton driveline, your problems are not from a few extra ponies in your Cummins motor, regardless of which one you have.

As with any vehicle, know the condition and the limits of your rig whether you are doing a parade, drag racing or rock crawling.

Hope that helps.

Cheers,
 
Last edited:

emr

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Having had a 250 that ran away (long story) and almost self-destructed I can tell you that getting parts is not a walk in the park.

I had to buy an engine just to get pistons and liners out of.

I tried several Cummins dealers in Alabama and all of them said that the 250 is an "obsolete" engine and most dealers do not stock and cannot get (from Cummins) parts for it.

I ended up selling the wrecker to a guy that ran a scrapyard and towing service....he told me he had a ton of money in the engine before he got it rebuilt (using his own mechanic).

It can also be a real pain to find an old school diesel mechanic that can work on the 250's and make the run right.

I would go with the newer engine.
Well here goes another opinion, this opinion is from my experience with my 3 250s, and 15 years at the depot here, worth of shop talk, easy motor to work on and run right, no race motor was never meant to be, old , yes, so IS the rest of the drive line in these vehicles, bumping the motor up with out the complete drive train and BRAKES is just stupid, sorry but in my mind that is true, i do stupid things too, but it is, one needs a different truck to put the power being discussed here. parts are as close as a phone call from many hobby mil equipment dealers not at cummins prices, like Eastern in PA great guy great service, there are others but he will handle what U want like so many others, after reading these motor hop ups, i was wondering if we are talking about military trucks anymore, there are no match ups to the power and drive trains in these trucks at all and like i said BRAKES, alot of U guys sure know alot about what it takes to power up an engine, but it seems to me there is no thought on the rest of the truck, just sayin, .. Randy
 

spicergear

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I would add that the 900 series truck has impressed me a lot so far. It is a Caddy compared to a deuce or 800 series. Cruises 55 @ 1800rpm easy. Steering, wow...it steers as easily as a full hydro unit. Brakes? Yep, them to with full air and abs, you can use your big toe to stop the thing. Overall road feel is nice...it doesn't feel like you're driving a massive truck until you look across and down slightly at semi tractor drivers.

Stock power feels like updated military power where you know it could be more BUT it does really well in as built form. Like Bruce was saying...when they shift they'll plant you in the seat. -it's really something sometimes. I'm happy with the investment and continued progress with my 931A2. The engine starts at just the bump of the starter and idles about as smooth as a diesel can. It doesn't make that geary, super loud, RAH-RAH-RAH-RAH as it idles either just a constant and steady RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA. :mrgreen:
 

ModernDieselLegion

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forget both and do what i'm doing for SirBlissful.

build out a cummins big cam 350. it has propane and was built from the block up. ill get pics up soon.



also guys.....im tired of hearing people ay you cant put turbos on the nhc-250. you can.....alll day. you just have to run an intercooler. bring on the oiler arguments!
 
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