blackrock
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Yep stuff is nice. I weld most of my sheetmetal axle housings for the monster trucks with it.
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Axle wrap with a bobbed deuce?
- Thread starter ivbeenrokd
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Lieutenant Dan
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So they are done i got rhe rear mounts finished up today. The rear mounts will have to be welded to the axle but oh well. Anyway here they are.....
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ivbeenrokd
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Everything is prepped and tacked together. Will weld up and install Saturday.
jesusgatos
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Looks good, but if you extend that piece of tubing further forward towards the front mount, you'll reduce the bending loads on the main tube and make that traction bar a lot stronger.
ivbeenrokd
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That was my first thought too but decided if anything failed the heim joint would brake easily before the main tube would bend. It's 2.5" 1/4" wall.
ivbeenrokd
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Welded up and installed, still need to paint. I also need to add a rubber line to insulate the brake line against the bracket.
Section8
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Ok I have speed read most of this thread due to the title of "Axle wrap with a bobbed deuce".
Most of this seems to have been centred on articulation! Not the intended concern with the start of the thread.
Since I am planning to bob my rig I am interested in the axle wrap solution, not articulation. I don't plan on trying to crawl over junker cars or through 5 foot deep ditches. Stock articulation is fine for my uses.
I am putting a cummins 12v in my rig. This being said for all involved would it not be easier to just lengthen the stock dogbone arms to accomidate a single axle design?
Four links are usually used on major horse power and torgue vehicles. The duece just aint one of those. Why go so extreme?
Did I miss the part where this thread went to RTI compatition rock crawlers?
Thoughts on the stock dogbones being lengthened for single axle use?
Most of this seems to have been centred on articulation! Not the intended concern with the start of the thread.
Since I am planning to bob my rig I am interested in the axle wrap solution, not articulation. I don't plan on trying to crawl over junker cars or through 5 foot deep ditches. Stock articulation is fine for my uses.
I am putting a cummins 12v in my rig. This being said for all involved would it not be easier to just lengthen the stock dogbone arms to accomidate a single axle design?
Four links are usually used on major horse power and torgue vehicles. The duece just aint one of those. Why go so extreme?
Did I miss the part where this thread went to RTI compatition rock crawlers?
Thoughts on the stock dogbones being lengthened for single axle use?
ivbeenrokd
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Surely you must be reading a different thread, as most of this thread is focused on limiting axle wrap while some of the thread deals with maximizing articulation while limiting axle wrap. I'd think discussing a completely different suspension design would be better left for a separate thread in my opinion. That being said, the factory suspension really isn't suitable for modification for a single axle design. If you want a 4 link just build one, but I think it's much easier to use Leaf springs for the deuce.
S8, the problem is axle torque due to large tires, not necessarily engine power. I doubt one will have any problem with stock or slightly larger tires to require a heim link.
Notice the mount of a standard dog bone and compare to the pictures...one end has a shackle to allow movement. A dog bone does not have that motion, it is mounted solid.
Deuce or 5-ton, I like a four link and it appears the standard dog bone(s) could be re-positioned for that purpose. Some of the nicest rides I have seen have air and four links. Four links prevent axle wrap which is essential to keeping the proper angle of transfer case to input shaft on the axle (they should be parallel).
There is nothing "stock" about making a bobber using front springs on a rear axle (although I believe it would be easiest). A spring simply has very little travel, especially not loaded. Lt Dan mentioned he is using springs from an M105 trailer, which is interesting.
You already have six dogbones and six mounts and only need four for a four link. But 4 link would need a lateral link for side motion too. I'll start a thread if there is any interest in a four link. I'm not ready to do it (I don't have the truck that I want to do it to) yet. Maybe a guy with some spare parts would sell cheap so I can work it out without committing an entire truck? I'll ask a man I sold a 923 to, to sell me back his spare parts when he bobs it.. They appear to be a lot alike (5 ton and deuce), just different size.
Notice the mount of a standard dog bone and compare to the pictures...one end has a shackle to allow movement. A dog bone does not have that motion, it is mounted solid.
Deuce or 5-ton, I like a four link and it appears the standard dog bone(s) could be re-positioned for that purpose. Some of the nicest rides I have seen have air and four links. Four links prevent axle wrap which is essential to keeping the proper angle of transfer case to input shaft on the axle (they should be parallel).
There is nothing "stock" about making a bobber using front springs on a rear axle (although I believe it would be easiest). A spring simply has very little travel, especially not loaded. Lt Dan mentioned he is using springs from an M105 trailer, which is interesting.
You already have six dogbones and six mounts and only need four for a four link. But 4 link would need a lateral link for side motion too. I'll start a thread if there is any interest in a four link. I'm not ready to do it (I don't have the truck that I want to do it to) yet. Maybe a guy with some spare parts would sell cheap so I can work it out without committing an entire truck? I'll ask a man I sold a 923 to, to sell me back his spare parts when he bobs it.. They appear to be a lot alike (5 ton and deuce), just different size.
Section8
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I wasn't suggesting another suspension build thread.
I was more wondering why a person wouldn't just use the stock dogbone mount positions onm the axle. To my understanding they are there for just the same reason as a four link. The two dogbones keep the axle from shifting forward and back and the mid dogbone is there to counter tilting, my limited understanding of axle wrap, of the centre chuck (differential).
There for using front springs shouldn't make a difference. Lengthen the dogbones to a new mount location on the frame fromwhile using the stock axle mounts.
Would this not accomplish the same as a four link with out having to due tons of fab work? I mean the dogbones are there for a reason such as this when the trucks were built. To compensate for terrian/load and engine force on the drive line to the axles, be it off road (military operational use) and on road.
So to clearify after my blather.
Can I lengthen my dogbones to new frame locations to accomplish the same thing?
I was more wondering why a person wouldn't just use the stock dogbone mount positions onm the axle. To my understanding they are there for just the same reason as a four link. The two dogbones keep the axle from shifting forward and back and the mid dogbone is there to counter tilting, my limited understanding of axle wrap, of the centre chuck (differential).
There for using front springs shouldn't make a difference. Lengthen the dogbones to a new mount location on the frame fromwhile using the stock axle mounts.
Would this not accomplish the same as a four link with out having to due tons of fab work? I mean the dogbones are there for a reason such as this when the trucks were built. To compensate for terrian/load and engine force on the drive line to the axles, be it off road (military operational use) and on road.
So to clearify after my blather.
Can I lengthen my dogbones to new frame locations to accomplish the same thing?
welldigger
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The dog bones are not suitable to try and use as a 4 link. The stock suspension is of a walking beam design. Meaning in between the two axles it pivots. The leaf springs are hard mounted to the center pivot and then lay on top of each axle. The spring packs act as a pan hard bar would and keep the axles tracking correctly.
It would be much easier to fab a triangulated 4 link set up then attempt to modify the stock suspension to function with a single axle.
It would be much easier to fab a triangulated 4 link set up then attempt to modify the stock suspension to function with a single axle.
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S8, go back to the pictures posted by ivbeenrokd and look at both ends. They are completely different than the dogbone. Lengthening is not the only problem.
Welldigger, I won't derail the thread by going into the geometry of the four link, but on my 923, the links could be repositioned to where the spring is (outside the frame)...making it a true four link, connected to the axle close to the wheel. Lower axle mounts may be usable, but a new fabrication, incorporating top and bottom link may be easier. Yes a panhard bar becomes necessary as does a bag or coil spring. The advantage would be travel and reasonable ride when empty. Take a look at the frame mounts and see if you have 4 holes where the links could attach (bottom has links in them from the inside and top holes are open) if the spring was removed.
I have studied the Porsche 914 rear suspension and you are right Welldigger about a triangulated four link. I thought that also until I started to look closer at the OEM and using/repurposing parts coming off.
Note this is really not off topic, since the four link is a viable (in my opinion) option for stopping "axle wrap".
Welldigger, I won't derail the thread by going into the geometry of the four link, but on my 923, the links could be repositioned to where the spring is (outside the frame)...making it a true four link, connected to the axle close to the wheel. Lower axle mounts may be usable, but a new fabrication, incorporating top and bottom link may be easier. Yes a panhard bar becomes necessary as does a bag or coil spring. The advantage would be travel and reasonable ride when empty. Take a look at the frame mounts and see if you have 4 holes where the links could attach (bottom has links in them from the inside and top holes are open) if the spring was removed.
I have studied the Porsche 914 rear suspension and you are right Welldigger about a triangulated four link. I thought that also until I started to look closer at the OEM and using/repurposing parts coming off.
Note this is really not off topic, since the four link is a viable (in my opinion) option for stopping "axle wrap".
blackrock
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Bars all Finished. Made a world of difference. Also flexed fine. I backed it up on a hill but didnt get a pic. But like stated before frame did all the flexing lol
mudguppy
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Looks great!
Lieutenant Dan
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How long are the bars
blackrock
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center to center of 1" bolt was 44.250"
Blackrock, do you have a build thread? I was guessing 48" and 1 1/4 thread...they look beefy. Is there a back side to the frame mount and a straight pin/bearing or is that more like a ball joint? Would semi tie rod ends work?
Welldigger, Please explain why the dog-bones would not be suitable for a four link? I understand the role of the spring in keeping it straight and in line, but the spring and it's axle mounts would be entirely removed, replaced by bones. There must be a Panhard or Watt's link for sideways motion, but I cannot imagine a better setup for the four forward links that connect the axle to the frame and provide for perfect drive alignment throughout the travel (if pivot points are correct). The flexibility of the ends seems perfect, from what I see. The extra two bones would make a dandy Watts link, perhaps.
Welldigger, Please explain why the dog-bones would not be suitable for a four link? I understand the role of the spring in keeping it straight and in line, but the spring and it's axle mounts would be entirely removed, replaced by bones. There must be a Panhard or Watt's link for sideways motion, but I cannot imagine a better setup for the four forward links that connect the axle to the frame and provide for perfect drive alignment throughout the travel (if pivot points are correct). The flexibility of the ends seems perfect, from what I see. The extra two bones would make a dandy Watts link, perhaps.
welldigger
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I guess if you just used the dog bones and made entirely new mounts for them they could possibly work. They are also a bit short for my liking. I just don't know how much articulation they would offer. Or if the rubber ends would survive for long under those circumstances. I guess it could be worth a try. Not something I would personally bother doing. Too easy to use heim joints and build custom mounts.
Lieutenant Dan
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Exactly plus they are cast..... I can see them breaking pretty easy, **** I've seen top of the line rod ends and chrome moly sheer off..... and not due to inferior welds or quality parts either.