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Diesel additives

rustystud

Well-known member
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Woodinville, Washington
To keep my 40' Transit Bus stored for the last 13 years (prepped for deep storage), I've been running Pri-D and Pi-Ocide (man, you have to get a 5-gallon pail for this stuff though). Pri-Ocide is an anti-microbial/inhibitor (algae).



Tim, where do you buy your "Pri-Ocide" from ? The place I used to buy from has stopped selling it in small quantities. They only sell 55 gallon drums now.
 
195
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I have found the best additives to be "Opti-Lube" for lubricity issues and "Pri-D" for long storage. You will also need a Bio-cide. The one "tim292stro" uses "Pri-Ocide" is about the very best but expensive. I use the whatever the store is carrying for a "Bio-cide" myself.

As far as adding a ZDDP additive goes. You would be a fool NOT to add some in our old military engines. Our engines where designed to use those additives and they have been removed in all of todays oils to meet emissions. I know this gets a lot of people excited and they go and search all the "oil companies" websites proving their oils need nothing added to them. Well after working in this industry for over 35 years I can tell you that is a lie ! From the oil companies viewpoint they are telling the truth when they say there oil meets all vehicles needs since most vehicles on the roads today are not over 10 years old. But for those of us who run old engines like all our military vehicles use this is not true, but we are a very small minority and no oil company is going to make a "special" oil just for us.
ZDDP additives are liquids that you pour into your engine. However ZDDP itself is a solid. So what are you actually pouring into your engine? Also I have built quite a few high performance diesel and gas engines with flat tappet lifters, and have witnessed cam lobes wiped out on engines that were running oils that had a high level of ZDDP. There is more to lubrication than just sacrificial metals. You also need the elements that chemically bond those metals to the camshaft, and you need two mix all this with a base oil that can maintain a high psi film strength. Now as far as old engines are concerned, (not including the four 60's vintage MV's that I own) I also have a 50's six cylinder Hercules gas engine in a loader, and a couple of 31 Ford Model A's that are all running just fine on the oil that I use. And before you ask yes I do routine oil analysis on almost everything I own. People can say what they want, but you need real world experience before telling someone that a magic bottle of whatever is going to protect their engine.
 
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tim292stro

Well-known member
2,118
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Location
S.F. Bay Area/California
Bought my Pri-Ocide 5-gallon pail from Amazon after I was unable to find the smaller 32oz bottles any more. Seems the 55 and 5 gallon sizes are all they sell any more (kind of a shame considering how far this stuff goes with a 3800:1 dilution initial dose and a 7600:1 maintenance treatment). I have looked into repackaging this 5-gallon pail into smaller dispensing containers but due to my location (California), I'd need to get a hazmat license to repackage and sell this stuff so it's impractical (I don't want to cut corners on hazmat stuff).

$390 for a 5-gallon pail may seem like a lot as an up-front cash outlay, but think about it this way - if I put an initial treatment dose in my M1009 every fill-up (about 20 gallons), it would take approximately 37 years to go through the full 5-gallons. So that works out to about $0.21 a fill-up.

View attachment 2015-PRI-D-INDUSTRIAL.pdfView attachment 2015-PRI-OCIDE.pdf
 
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Hitman

Member
139
0
16
Location
Cove tx
Rotella 550019913 T Triple Protection CJ-4 15W-40 Motor Oil - 1 Gallon This stuff was recommended to me by my long time engine builder. He said said this stuff has the zinc in it that older non-roller engines need to keep the lifters lubed on the cam. Modern motor oils have phased out the zinc per government requirements, if you run older design engines this oil is a MUST. been using and all is good so far.
 
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Rotella 550019913 T Triple Protection CJ-4 15W-40 Motor Oil - 1 Gallon This stuff was recommended to me by my long time engine builder. He said said this stuff has the zinc in it that older non-roller engines need to keep the lifters lubed on the cam. Modern motor oils have phased out the zinc per government requirements, if you run older design engines this oil is a MUST. been using and all is good so far.
That oil has changed dramatically in the past two years, and unfortunately not for the better. It's not a bad oil, just not what it used to be. Oil companies change the chemical formulation of their oils all the time, so it's impossible to say that an oil that performed well last year will perform well this year. I've spent more time than I should have researching oil. Unfortunately the conclusion that I've come up with is that there is no perfect oil, or perfect brand. Unless you want to perform wear tests on all of the oils offered by every brand every year your just rolling the dice. Personally I've just chosen a couple of well known oil brands to stick with, and so far all is well. After all how many actual engine failures has anyone seen that could be attributed to a specific brand of oil? This next statement will probably stir some controversy. If you want the most protection for your engine run a straight weight oil like SAE-40. The reason I say this is because under magnification oil molecules look like little balls. While the viscosity modifiers (the things that turn a 15 weight oil into a 40 weight oil) look like little coils that straighten out into long sticks when the oil gets warm. That's how the oil thickens. In summary balls lubricate while sticks do not.
 
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rustystud

Well-known member
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Location
Woodinville, Washington
That oil has changed dramatically in the past two years, and unfortunately not for the better. It's not a bad oil, just not what it used to be. Oil companies change the chemical formulation of their oils all the time, so it's impossible to say that an oil that performed well last year will perform well this year. I've spent more time than I should have researching oil. Unfortunately the conclusion that I've come up with is that there is no perfect oil, or perfect brand. Unless you want to perform wear tests on all of the oils offered by every brand every year your just rolling the dice. Personally I've just chosen a couple of well known oil brands to stick with, and so far all is well. After all how many actual engine failures has anyone seen that could be attributed to a specific brand of oil? This next statement will probably stir some controversy. If you want the most protection for your engine run a straight weight oil like SAE-40. The reason I say this is because under magnification oil molecules look like little balls. While the viscosity modifiers (the things that turn a 15 weight oil into a 40 weight oil) look like little coils that straighten out into long sticks when the oil gets warm. That's how the oil thickens. In summary balls lubricate while sticks do not

Where are you getting this information ?
 
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Conventional oils have come a long way in the last fifteen years. They are closer to the performance level of the synthetics than most people believe. The only major advantage that the synthetics hold over the conventional oils now is extended drain intervals. If you change your oil every three to four thousand miles then the advantages of synthetics almost dissappear.
 

pmramsey

Active member
463
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43
Location
VA
Shell makes the Rotella T1, Heavy Duty Diesel Straight grade SAE 30 and SAE 10 motor oils. Advanced Auto and Auto Zone both carry the oils. I get them in one gallon packs of 3 to a pack. The old Mack ENDT-673 sitting in my M54A1 gets the SAE 30 eight months out of the year and the SAE 10 the rest. I add 2oz a gallon of ZDDP MAXX at the oil change. Lucas also makes a convenient 12oz bottle for the 26qts of oil required for the changes. I use 2oz per gallon with the Shell T1 because it has some detergents. Higher detergent oils clean away and counter act the zinc and phosphorus additives. One must strike a balance. A low or non-detergent oil requires only 1oz per gallon.
 

Floridianson

Well-known member
Steel Soldiers Supporter
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Interlachen Fl.
While I agree with the zinc-phosphorus issue I have to warn everyone that the zinc-phosphorus additives are not just zinc and phosphorus. Those are metals that are mixed with who knows what else. I have personally seen oil analysis and bearing wear tests that show how the introduction of these kinds of additives can actually reduce the oils ability to protect the engine. Oil manufacturers spend alot of money making sure that their brand is never associated with a bunch of blown up motors. Pick a good brand name and leave it alone. Unless you're one of big oils over-paid chemists. Now the diesel fuel additive issue I do fully agree with. Diesel fuel today sucks. I personally use Howes, K-100, and Diesel Power Service Diesel Kleen. I've noticed that the Diesel Kleen (silver bottle) makes my diesel engines smoke a little bit more. For lubricity purposes any light single viscosity motor oil, transmission fluid, or two stroke oil will work well.
I disagree on the transmission fluid. I use Diesel kleen or Stanadyne.
 
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I read through all the posts, and realized that some of what I said may have been confusing. I will try and explain with a little more depth. First my comment on Shell Rotella not being what it used to be. I was referring to that oils film strenth. It has decreased by more than 20,000 psi in the last two years. However even at that level it it is still comparable to other brands. Now the additive package in that oil is still very good. The friction modifiers they use are still more than up to the task of protecting your flat tappet diesel engine. With that out of the way I will begin to explain my posts concerning the addition of ZDDP additive to modern oils. Back when oil companies first began producing lubricating oils there were no viscosity or friction modifiers in their oils. They where just plain old refined base stocks. When car companies began to build engines that demanded better lubrication the oil companies began to use friction modifiers in their oils. One of the main friction modifiers was ZDDP. Why, because it was cheap, plentiful, and it did the job well. All up until the late 90's when the EPA began to put the hurts to that game. From then until I believe 2008 (I'm not sure about the date) oil companies were forced to SLOWLY remove the ZDDP from their API listed oils. I capitalized slowly because this is where problems began. Oil companies believed the engines could easily survive with most of the ZDDP removed from their oils, and they were right as long as those engines were modern roller type engines. The fact was as the ZDDP was being removed almost nothing else was being added to help out older flat tappet engines. This is when everyone started to hear about ZDDP additives and how they were needed in flat tappet engines. That was true. If you added ZDDP to those oils that had most of the ZDDP removed then you were helping your engine out. You were just adding back what was being removed. However now that the EPA has mandated that all ZDDP be removed from API listed oils the oil manufacturers have had to turn to a different friction modifier. This is where the problem starts. This new more expensive, and better friction modifier is not compatible with the ZDDP. When mixed these elements begin to bond and negate each other's lubricating properties. If you are running an oil that is 15+ years old then you can still used the ZDDP additives. I personally don't have any that are that old, so I'm going to assume that everyone here is running a modern oil. These modern oils with their new better friction modifiers are more than up to the task of protecting you flat tappet diesel engines. I hope everyone reads this post in detail. If you have any queations please feel free to ask. I have spent more than four years researching oil, talking to big oil's chemists, and engineers, and doing the simple science myself. Please, I may one day wish to buy one of your engines. I don't want to buy one that been all screwed up.
 
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Floridianson

Well-known member
Steel Soldiers Supporter
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Location
Interlachen Fl.
I did a search and found people who have added stuff to their Diesel Fuel , but no responses. So what is the word on using additives?
Been using Howes Lubrication Diesel treat on my trucks and put some in my MEP 803a gen set Tank.
What are you using and do you recommend it?
The thread started about fuel additives and some where went to motor oil.
 

JRM

Member
166
12
18
Location
Brightwood, Oregon
Oil topics are pretty heated in every forum-you should see the diesel VW vwvortex site- its like religion! My advice is to just use a quality 15w40 add in some additive of your choice, zinc is always preferred and keep it fresh- these engines have one sweet oil drain so no reason not to dump the oil rather than keeping in a expensive oil longer.
 

rustystud

Well-known member
9,280
2,987
113
Location
Woodinville, Washington
I read through all the posts, and realized that some of what I said may have been confusing. I will try and explain with a little more depth. First my comment on Shell Rotella not being what it used to be. I was referring to that oils film strenth. It has decreased by more than 20,000 psi in the last two years. However even at that level it it is still comparable to other brands. Now the additive package in that oil is still very good. The friction modifiers they use are still more than up to the task of protecting your flat tappet diesel engine. With that out of the way I will begin to explain my posts concerning the addition of ZDDP additive to modern oils. Back when oil companies first began producing lubricating oils there were no viscosity or friction modifiers in their oils. They where just plain old refined base stocks. When car companies began to build engines that demanded better lubrication the oil companies began to use friction modifiers in their oils. One of the main friction modifiers was ZDDP. Why, because it was cheap, plentiful, and it did the job well. All up until the late 90's when the EPA began to put the hurts to that game. From then until I believe 2008 (I'm not sure about the date) oil companies were forced to SLOWLY remove the ZDDP from their API listed oils. I capitalized slowly because this is where problems began. Oil companies believed the engines could easily survive with most of the ZDDP removed from their oils, and they were right as long as those engines were modern roller type engines. The fact was as the ZDDP was being removed almost nothing else was being added to help out older flat tappet engines. This is when everyone started to hear about ZDDP additives and how they were needed in flat tappet engines. That was true. If you added ZDDP to those oils that had most of the ZDDP removed then you were helping your engine out. You were just adding back what was being removed. However now that the EPA has mandated that all ZDDP be removed from API listed oils the oil manufacturers have had to turn to a different friction modifier. This is where the problem starts. This new more expensive, and better friction modifier is not compatible with the ZDDP. When mixed these elements begin to bond and negate each other's lubricating properties. If you are running an oil that is 15+ years old then you can still used the ZDDP additives. I personally don't have any that are that old, so I'm going to assume that everyone here is running a modern oil. These modern oils with their new better friction modifiers are more than up to the task of protecting you flat tappet diesel engines. I hope everyone reads this post in detail. If you have any queations please feel free to ask. I have spent more than four years researching oil, talking to big oil's chemists, and engineers, and doing the simple science myself. Please, I may one day wish to buy one of your engines. I don't want to buy one that been all screwed up.
Please stop posting mis-information ! I don't know where your getting all this wrong information (probably youtube) but it is wrong. For one, regular oil is NOT the same as synthetic ! ZDDP was not dropped in 2008 ! Film strength has not decreased 20,000psi ! Your getting some really messed up information and it is not helping this site by posting it here. If I'm wrong then by all means tell use where you getting all this information and if it's legitimate I'll gladly say I'm sorry. But having gone through this rodeo many times before I know I'm correct.
 

Lmtv772

Banned
651
18
0
Location
Florida
I'm wowed about all the responses trickling in. It's a great read and probably very helpful to anyone looking into diesel additives and even oil additives ( yes I did ask about oil additives , since I didn't know much about them)
Thank you all for your input
 
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Many of the oil companies had to remove all the ZDDP from their oils so they could start using their new friction modifiers. Like I said the ZDDP and the newer friction modifiers don't play well together. You may have gone through this rodeo before, just as I have, but you also need to stay up to date. As of now I own and run on a regular basis 11 engines with flat tappet lifters, both gas and diesel. I have experienced no camshaft wear while using off the shelf oils, and I am not using any additive. The PSI figure came from a wear bar test. I'm not a big fan of that test, but thought it deserved some merit. I do watch YouTube sometimes, but only for a laugh. I've had the reps from Valvoline and Mobil on the phone more than a few times. That's where I've received alot of my info from. Also the fact that you are responding to my posts with anger only means that you feel that my posts contain information that has merit. Though you may not agree with it.
 
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