MEP-803A Cranks, wont start.

[dwade154]

So I am stumped. I could really use some advice. I have two MEP-803A GENSETS I just purchased from GL.

One of them I have added all fluids and filters to it. Put a new set of batteries on it and attempted to start it. It will crank bur wont start. It blows black smoke and appears as if its getting fuel.

Things Ive done,

-Primed fuel for a good amount of time.
-checked electronic connections
-has clean AF
-Oil pressure switch and connections "appear" to be fine.
-I have (as of now) cranked approximately 10-15 times for 15 second intervals

It does have a slight fuel leak from the top of engine at the return lines. (which every single one ive had has done this.)

Could wet stacking cause it not to start. I dont want to burn a perfectly good starter on this. Ive owned a few of these over the years and havent had this issue but im not an expert on these gensets either. I just like to tinker and make a buck here and there.




The other one I bought has been reset and got water inside the engine and it's seized. So far and at this moment i have pulled the

-injectors to expose the cylinders
-exhaust manifold
and filled both with ATF fluid to attempt at breaking the engine loose.

-i have also pulled the crankcase side cover off and cleaned out what little water was in the case.

It has been sitting now for less than 24 hours

just wanting to know if anyone has any experience at what to do when these engines seize. How much force should I use when attempting to break it free. I don't want to break a ring or bend a rod.

please let me know what y'all think.

Thanks,

Dan
-

 

[Suprman]

Did you replace the fuel filters? Is the fuel pump working?

 

[Suprman]

Is the fuel solenoid fully retracting?

 

[dwade154]

Yes, I can hear the fuel pump working. I also replaced the fuel filter and separator as well. When starting the genset, I can see the solenoid jump. How far is it supposed to retract?

 

[Suprman]

Manually move it all the way retracted by hand. That's how far it should go when you start the gen.

 

[Guyfang]

When you say jump, do you mean it goes forward, then springs back again? Or that it goes forward, all the way and stays there?

 

[coxju04]

Mine has been sitting for 7 years after they rebuilt it. GP said it would crank, but not start. I don't think that 7year old fuel would be any good now. This is my 1st 803, so I will be following

 

[dwade154]

The solenoid will jump all the way forward and stay there. That is correct. It seems like it wants to start when the black smoke that comes out the exhaust. It sounds different than if you just crank it with the switch in the engine compartment. What should I do next?

 

[Guyfang]

If a diesel engine gets Fuel, Air and Compression, It will run. If yours won't start, then it's missing one of those three things. You said the fuel solenoid goes forwards, and stays there. So nothing electrical is telling the engine to not start. Remove the air filter hose between the air filter and air intake manifold. Yes, you could just take out the air filter. BUT, you still cant see into the air intake. So LOOK into the air intake. Crack the fuel lines at the injectors, to see if you are getting enough fuel output. The only thing after that is a compression check. No, also, check fuel pump output. READ the manual. It's all in the book.

 

[Kenny0]

I could be wrong, but I think Guyfang meant to try starting with the air filter hose disconnected. Just for testing purposes just make sure there's no dust or debris to get sucked into the intake manifold.

 

[dwade154]

hhh

So I got her started. I did as you suggested and cracked open each injector individually. #4 was the culprit. I guess it had air in it because as soon as I cracked the injector and attempted to crank it, she started. Thank you for all the advice, from everyone.

Also, I still can't break loose the other genset engine that is seized. Currently it is sitting with ATF in the cylinders. Any suggestions?

 

[coxju04]

cool, on getting her started!! I wonder if B.P. blaster would help getting the other one free.

 

[Guyfang]

So I got her started. I did as you suggested and cracked open each injector individually. #4 was the culprit. I guess it had air in it because as soon as I cracked the injector and attempted to crank it, she started. Thank you for all the advice, from everyone.

Also, I still can't break loose the other genset engine that is seized. Currently it is sitting with ATF in the cylinders. Any suggestions?[/QUOTE

Good. Always start cracking injector lines, with the first line being the farthest from the fuel source. That lets the air be pushed out from the rest of the system.

Give the ATF time to work. Don't force it. But in the end, you may just have to take the engine apart.

 

[rustystud]

[QUOT READ the manual. It's all in the book.[/QUOTE]

This new generation needs "spoon" feeding . It is hard to actually read something !

 

[Kenny0]

I usually mix ATF with diesel fuel half-and-half mixture, the diesel fuel makes it penetrate a lot better. Be patient, let it soak to do it's job. Remove the starter and use a prybar on the teeth of the ring gear of the flywheel. This applies a lot of torque. When it starts to move, stop and go back the other way. Keep working back and forth until it's completely free. Usually want to remove the injectors before you start. After completely free, reinstall the starter and crank the engine with the starter. Stay away from a injector openings because oil will the spray all over the place. After most of the oil stops spraying out of the injector hole put more oil in the affected cylinders, and repeat with the starter. If the oil looks free of rust reinstall the injectors. If you're still getting oily rust coming out of the injector holes add more oil and turnover with a starter again. Keep doing this until it is relatively rust free. And you should be good to go. Just make sure there is no excess oil left in the cylinder before you reinstall the injectors. Excess oil in the combustion chamber will cause hydrostatic lock and that's not good. I usually let it sit for a day so most of the oil will drain down past the rings into the crankcase before I try to start.

 

[rustystud]

I usually mix ATF with diesel fuel half-and-half mixture, the diesel fuel makes it penetrate a lot better. Be patient, let it soak to do it's job. Remove the starter and use a prybar on the teeth of the ring gear of the flywheel. This applies a lot of torque. When it starts to move, stop and go back the other way. Keep working back and forth until it's completely free. Usually want to remove the injectors before you start. After completely free, reinstall the starter and crank the engine with the starter. Stay away from a injector openings because oil will the spray all over the place. After most of the oil stops spraying out of the injector hole put more oil in the affected cylinders, and repeat with the starter. If the oil looks free of rust reinstall the injectors. If you're still getting oily rust coming out of the injector holes add more oil and turnover with a starter again. Keep doing this until it is relatively rust free. And you should be good to go. Just make sure there is no excess oil left in the cylinder before you reinstall the injectors. Excess oil in the combustion chamber will cause hydrostatic lock and that's not good. I usually let it sit for a day so most of the oil will drain down past the rings into the crankcase before I try to start.

Usually if an engine is that frozen and you even get it to eventually turn over, the rings and cylinder are shot. The amount of rust that it takes to freeze the pistons like that will ruin rings. They will never seal properly. It also usually leaves good tracks in the cylinder bore which leak oil and fuel during compression. By all means get the engine to turn over. It really helps in the disassembly, but don't think for a moment this will be a great runner after it is unstuck.

 

[Kenny0]

rustystud you are absolutely right sort of, yes any engine that is been stuck will be deficient to some extent, depends on how bad it was stuck and what condition it was in before being stuck. I worked on a number of farm tractors that have been stuck, some not so bad and some pretty bad. Anytime that I have a stuck engine and freed it up, I would put it on the dyno and keep increasing the load, increase it some, and let it run at that load then increase it's more and let it run at that load and increase it some more and run at that load. When I would get it up to full load I would let it sit and run for a while, and gradually decrease the load. Some engines would go from belching smoke like an old locomotive to completely cleared up and others would reduce significantly and others some or none. Each engine is different. Would any of them be perfect, no. It all depends upon what the end user is going to use it for. If you were going to run 24/7 for months on end, you would probably want to tear it down and fix it right. If you are going to run it as a standby and put 25 -50 hours on it a year, and it went for 10 years that might be absolutely acceptable to the end-user. It all depends of what is acceptable to the end-user. Just because an engine might take a little bit of oil, does that mean it should be overhauled, not necessarily. It all depends upon how it's going to be used and how much at a time. A couple quarts of oil every now and again is a lot cheaper than an engine overhaul. in the end any engine that has been stuck has lost total hours from one that has never been stuck, it all comes down to what is acceptable to the end-user in the end. I am not saying that every engine that has been stuck will be usable, it depends upon how bad it stuck and for how long, but some engines will be perfectly usable.

 

[jamawieb]

I've had a couple of engines stuck that I was able to loosen by pouring ATF fluid and carburetor cleaner into the cylinders. They actually out performed units that were runners with the same hours.

 

[rustystud]

rustystud you are absolutely right sort of, yes any engine that is been stuck will be deficient to some extent, depends on how bad it was stuck and what condition it was in before being stuck. I worked on a number of farm tractors that have been stuck, some not so bad and some pretty bad. Anytime that I have a stuck engine and freed it up, I would put it on the dyno and keep increasing the load, increase it some, and let it run at that load then increase it's more and let it run at that load and increase it some more and run at that load. When I would get it up to full load I would let it sit and run for a while, and gradually decrease the load. Some engines would go from belching smoke like an old locomotive to completely cleared up and others would reduce significantly and others some or none. Each engine is different. Would any of them be perfect, no. It all depends upon what the end user is going to use it for. If you were going to run 24/7 for months on end, you would probably want to tear it down and fix it right. If you are going to run it as a standby and put 25 -50 hours on it a year, and it went for 10 years that might be absolutely acceptable to the end-user. It all depends of what is acceptable to the end-user. Just because an engine might take a little bit of oil, does that mean it should be overhauled, not necessarily. It all depends upon how it's going to be used and how much at a time. A couple quarts of oil every now and again is a lot cheaper than an engine overhaul. in the end any engine that has been stuck has lost total hours from one that has never been stuck, it all comes down to what is acceptable to the end-user in the end. I am not saying that every engine that has been stuck will be usable, it depends upon how bad it stuck and for how long, but some engines will be perfectly usable.

If you like using an engine that pours out belching clouds of smoke that's great. Most people don't like that, and in fact most towns and cities don't like it either. I have never seen a "diesel" engine that had rings so rusted it froze the pistons to the bore, loosened up and run with just a small amount of smoke. Sorry, it just doesn't happen. Remember diesels need at a minimum 16:1 compression to run. You cannot have rusted rings and a scoured up bore due to rust and have any quality seal going on there. That is "fairy dust" kind of wishing. It doesn't happen in the real world.
I know someone is going to come up with some story he heard from his uncle's best friend who knew a guy in the military who when he swam with some mermaids was able to free-up this diesel engine and it ran better then any other engine in the fleet. Spare us this nonsense. After 45 years working on diesels I've heard all the "stories" . And stories they are, fairy tales actually.
If you had a "mildly" frozen engine (due mostly to burned oil deposits and crud build up) you can possibly free it up with some ATF and some cleaner, but it still will smoke. But a really frozen engine that has rusted rings will usually take a sledge hammer on the piston tops to get it freed up. I once worked on a large Perkins inline six that had water in the cylinders. It took me and another mechanic two days to bust out those pistons so it could be rebuilt. Needless to say the rings where shot as where the pistons !

 

[Kenny0]

rustystud - I would never use nor recommend an engine that pours out belching clouds of smoke. Evidently you have only worked with extreme cases. In extreme cases no amount of fairy dust will do anything. An engine sitting out in the back 40 for 10 years without a rain cap where it rains regularly is going to be an extreme case. An engine that needed an overhaul that was parked and got stuck would still need an overhaul. Not all cases of being stuck is an extreme case. The key is putting the engine under maximum load for at least an hour and after that time if it looks like it's going to be usable, great. just change oil and filter and accelerate the next 2 oil and filter changes. It looks like we are probably about the same age, and I have done repair work my whole life for a living. It seems like we have a difference of opinion on this, hey that's okay it all makes the world go round. I do stand behind everything that I have said in my posts. This is from first-hand personal experience, not fairytales and stories. I think we have both said enough on the subject for the readers to form their own opinion. Good day sir.