Newbie Needs Input On Upcoming Project...

[TBigLug]

2.5 or 5 ton, Bobbed Trailer Hauler Dilemma... Help

I don't know if this is the proper forum so if not, let me know and I'll see if a moderator can move it.

What I want to do is bob a deuce or 5 ton to use in my farming operation. My plan is to pull the rear axle, install a standard 8 ft flatbed (not an M105 just a plain old flatbed), relocate the axle as far to the rear of the truck as I can (more clearance between trailer and truck when hauling my fifth wheel camper) install some differant seats, etc. The hitch in the bed I'll use will be a draw tite interchangeable like you would have in a 1 ton pickup. That way I can use a fifth wheel plate or gooseneck ball depending on the trailer. I won't be hauling any trailers that would be too heavy for a one ton dually. I want the flatbed to be as narrow as possible, at most, the exact width to the outside of the rear tires. I think with an 8 ft. bed it should be about the same length as say a one ton extended cab. I'd like a multifuel motor so I can burn WMO in the summer to offset the cost of operating it. It would be plated as a farm truck and insured through State Farm (they covered my commercial insurance policy on my utility truck). So, here's some questions I have.

2.5 or 5 ton? Will a deuce have a sturdy enough rear axle to handle pulling a 15,000 lb. trailer?

Would it be better to run stock size dual rear wheels or go to a size or two bigger singles? I'd like to go singles but I'm not sure if they have the load capacity enough to hold up to hauling a fifth wheel. Somebody with experience towing with singles, please chime in and let me know ideas for sizes, tread patterns, etc.

How close to the rear of the truck can I mount the rear axle before I run into unseen problems? I got this idea from seeing the 90's 3500HD Chevy's set up with a wrecker bed and the axle mounted right at the back of the frame. I think it will keep the bed from hitting the front of the camper when I turn.

Is there enough room to mount semi air ride seats in the cab? There not for me, if I can convince my wife to ride in one with me, she has ruptured bursas in her hips so I would mount one on the passenger side first just for her. Anyone know of a particular semi I should look for for seats that take up as little space as possible? (More on why this is important later.)

Would it be worth it to get a 5 ton for the added capacity and power steering? The manual steering in the deuce doesn't bother me but if the wife liked it enough to want to drive I'd like her to be able to. She's 5'3 130 soaking wet I'm 6'5 350.

I'd like a winch but it's not a prerequisite for me. Given this will be mainly a business vehicle I don't envision taking it to the local mud bog very often. Are they worth having given they put extra weight on the front of an already nose heavy truck since I won't use it much anyway (I know, I might think it's not worth it until the ONE time I REALLY need it )?

Is there anywhere around Lansing, MI that is a reliable source of parts?

How big of singles can I fit on stock deuce rims? 5 ton rims? Are they actually the same size only the 5 ton is 10 hole and the deuce 6?

Will the deuce or 5 ton have enough power to tow the trailers I have mentioned? I always hear that these trucks are too gutless to pull themselves on the flat but I have a hard time believing they are that bad at towing otherwise why would the military use them as tow vehicles for oh a hundred years? I like the thought of big gears and being able to pull down a house if I want to.

I think that's it for the moment. Within a couple minutes I'm sure I'll come up with more.

Any advice you guys can give me would be greatly appreciated. But bear with me and my simple questions. Remember, I am a newbie looking for my first MV.

DISCLAIMER: Yes, I have used the search function. While I have learned alot I haven't found any projects like what I want. Most people use their deuce's and 5 tons for pleasure/ show vehicles (which is great, I love to see them on the road) but this is going to be a used daily work vehicle. Yes, I have considered buying a F600 or C6500 or whatever civvy truck, but I operate in alot of rough terrain, I can buy 6 deuce's for what it would cost for a comparible miles civvy truck, most of my driving is out in the country within 50 miles of the farm at most and worse comes to worse, I can pull a 3 or 4 bottom plow with it . Also, the whole 50 mph top speed doesn't bother me.

 

[TBigLug]

Need help determining clearence.

Oh, and the major thing. Is there anyone around Stockbridge who could let me sit in their truck. I want to make sure, before I get too wrapped up in this, that I can actually maneuver in one of these. I drive a Cavalier for my DD so I don't need alot of room. Just enough to breathe. This is why the seat question was important.

Anyone know of a particular semi I should look for for seats that take up as little space as possible? (More on why this is important later.)

 

[TBigLug]

Example of axle mounting.

This is an example of how I want the axle mounted in case I wasn't clear. As far to the back as I can get it.

 

[powerhouseduece]

here is a link with some good info, I think its kinda looking for.

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?t=26365&highlight=bobbed

 

[TBigLug]

Seeking additional assistance.

Thanks for the link. I just sent recovry a PM to see if he could check this out and give me any advice.

 

[TBigLug]

Where are all the people who are smarter than me?

Maybe I shoulda picked a differant title? I'm sure there's someone out there who could chip in some information. Come on guys, I've never owned an MV but I'm not a mechanical newbie!

 

[TBigLug]

New tire decision.

After doing some additional research I'd like to run 11.00-20 XL's on the rear and 14.5-20 XL's on the front. Does anyone have a deuce with the 11.00-20's on the rear that can give me a frame height measurement? With them being 3" taller than the 9.00-20's I want to make sure the overall height of the truck will still be low enough to mount my 5th wheel and gooseneck hitch in the bed.

 

[Recovry4x4]

I'm afraid I won't have too much good info to add but I'll try. Firstly, you can mount the rear axle within about 30" of the rear of the frame. While doing that may look cool, you run the chance of bending a frame. If you notice, the truck is designed to have the bulk of the weight near the center of the cargo area. With the axle all the way to the rear you will be loading the weight between the front and rear. The front axle of a deuce is already pretty heavy. What is the benefit of taking a rear axle out if you are not shortening the truck? Remember, you control where the rear axle goes if you strip the tandem assy out.

 

[TBigLug]

Actually, I'll be shortening the frame quite a bit. It will be 8 feet from the back of the cab to the back of the flatbed. I do understand what your saying about the chance of bending the frame. The main reason for wanting to mount the axle as close to the back as I can is for clearence between the back of my bed and the fifth wheel camper I have. If the axle is all the way at the back, the fifth wheel will be 1 or 2 inches in front of it, putting it close to the rear end. Puts less chance the edge of the flatbed will shave off the front of my camper. The most weight I'll ever put on the bed of the truck would be 50-80 bales of hay. Mainly will be a trailer puller. Fifth wheel, gooseneck and bumper pull. Nothing heavier than a one ton could handle most of the time.

BTW thanks for coming over and taking a look.

 

[TBigLug]

Bed decision.

Here's the bed i'd like to have for it. 7' Wide and 8' long. According to the research I did this morning, track width on the front is 67.75". Rear to the outside dual is 80.75". Bed is 84" so if I were to keep duals they'd be covered and if I went to singles they wouldn't overhang the tires too much. I think anything less than 7' wide might start getting goofy looking but I'm not sure cause I can't find out how wide the cab is on an M35 (not including the running boards). I think 6' would probably be narrower than the cab and/or tanks and such on the side.

What do you guys think? Am I nuts or could this work?

 

[TBigLug]

So if my poking around is right, a deuce is rated at 11,000 lb for the front axle, 28,000 lb rear tandem. With my bobber I'd be looking at 11,000 and 14,000 respectively (in theory). Post bobbing my truck would weigh in at a MAX of 10,000 with a MAX of say 40% of that over the rear (since my rear axle will be pushed all the way to the back of the frame). So, empty I'm holding 4,000 over the rear axle. That should leave me with 10,000 lb of available weight on that axle without it destroying itself. I would think that would be plenty to tow most any fifth wheel, gooseneck or bumper pull I've got. Right?

 

[Flea]

I would say that you would have a decent pickup with a deuce. I would not count on camping with a 5th wheel with one, though. The bed height is pretty significant (42-48" perhaps?) and without power steering, you wouldn't have fun trying to back into a campsite. Sure, the deuce would yank around a 5th wheel fairly easily, but you'd probably not be going anywhere very fast. If your wife is having hip trouble, the ride (even with an air-ride seat) certainly isn't going to help.

Keep in mind, too, you're talking about bobbing this vehicle, which means you would not only decrease the GVW for the vehicle with one less axle, you would also lose one braked axle, thus braking power would be reduced noticeably under load.

Then you've got the 24-12 volt conversion to think about. Pulling a camper myself, I've been working on coming up with some solution outside of a 12V alternator and separate battery for trailer operation.

As far as using it to work, you'd have a hard-working vehicle that will probably out-pace any pickup you could buy for similar money. I'd suggest you check out this thread: link. With your axle pushed back a bit, you would have more room for the auxiliary box, and could gain more gear ratios and a higher top speed. It may even save you from having to have a custom drive-shaft made up if you space it properly.

Most of all, good luck and keep us posted.

 

[TBigLug]

I would say that you would have a decent pickup with a deuce.

You hit the nail right on the head with that. I am looking for a severe duty pickup for less than the $12,000 price tag of a decent used one.

The 24 to 12 volt conversion I think will be an important improvement I'll end up doing. Costs some money but in the end I think it solves more headaches than it causes (especially after reading the WHOLE Diablo build).

Thanks for that link. I've read about units like that before and it will definitely be on my future upgrade list. For now, most (95%) of the driving I would do with it is within 5 miles of the house (except for one field that's about 10 away but we won't get into that).

As for the camper, I'd thought ALOT about this in the last couple days (who needs sleep, I've got coffee and a head full of ideas. That's how the trouble always starts ). The height I don't think will be too awful bad. The pickup we pulled it home with was a one ton single wheel 4x4 Powerstroke. The fifth wheel in the bed was almost even with the top rails of the bed. Putting it about chest high to me. I've got a foot of clearance I can gain by moving my pin higher off the ground into the camper. On top of that, I am going to perform an axle flip (or spring over however you want to think of it) on the camper itself which will gain me an additional 4-6" of height. It's only a 34' Prowler so fully loaded I'd be looking at 12,000 max with a pin weight of under 400 lbs.

As far as the wife is concerned, most of our camping off site is done within 50 miles of the house (horse shows, auctions, fairs, etc.) so she would most likely just follow me in the car (2004 Cavalier, 2.2, 5 sp., 40 mpg., 105 mph. top speed, WHAT FUN IS THAT???) to wherever we went. My main concern is if she eve did want to go for a ride is to make it as comfortable as I can for her (Yes, she is a woman I'd walk over a hundred miles on broken glass barefoot to make happy, she is my everything). Most of her rides in it would be a short jaunt to town and back or a little off roading fun out in the back 40.

I think I covered everything.

Thanks again for the link and keep the ideas coming.

 

[Flea]

A note:

I don't think you'd want to convert the whole truck to 12 Volts - the benefits of 24 volt in regards to starting/cranking are pretty significant. Plus, you'd have to replace just about everything on the truck, possibly even the wiring (1/2 the volts = double amps).

If you feel you've got your bases covered, the only thing left to do is to hold your breath and dive right in. It's much easier to see what is/isn't possible when you're staring the green monster in the face!

Also, 400 pounds on the pin? My '69 holiday rambler weighs about 6000 lbs and I'd guess it's got close to 700 on the tongue! Sure like to see pics of it, though! Thinking more about it, you might even be able to drop the 5th wheel down from the flatbed a bit at the very end -- something like this:

 

[randyscycle]

I think the two most significant factors, to me at least, would be the lack of powersteering as mentioned above when backing a trailer, and the gearing.

Unloaded and with the fuel turned up a bit, my deuce will get up to 55 in a reasonable time, but not quickly, and at best will maintain 45 on a long upgrade, or hill. Add a few thousand pounds of trailer, and that will change significantly. Not that you'd want to be in a hurry pullling a trailer anyway, but something to think about.

Powersteering air assist for a 2.5 ton was around $2000 last I checked to add the kit to your truck.

One last thing too, and not a big deal, but if you plan on spending any real time in the cab, you will want to add a muffler. Most of these trucks rely solely on the turbo for any silencing of the exhaust note, and after even a short drive, you will have ringing ears.

Good luck in your build though, and keep us up to speed if/when you do it.

 

[TBigLug]

Also, 400 pounds on the pin? My '69 holiday rambler weighs about 6000 lbs and I'd guess it's got close to 700 on the tongue! Sure like to see pics of it, though!

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha, I'ma dumb a$$! Apparently coffee doesn't help the math skills at all! I was just thinking re reading my post, "Man, I can't believe it only puts 400 lbs. on the back..."

But, my good man, you are correct. The trailer puts 10% to 20% of the weight of the trailer on the back of the truck. Whereby making it 1,320 to 2,640 lbs. on the pin with the trailer fully loaded. The empty weight is 9,000 lbs or so.

Ha ha ha, I'm an idiot.

I didn't think of the benefits of the 24 volt. I guess that'll be one I'll just have to lose more sleep over to decide.

As for jumping in, I'm all ready. I need to sit in one though first so i can be sure there's enough room to breathe.

Beyond that, I've got a nice CLEAN '85 Chevy in the classifieds for sale. I need to sell it to get the deuce (or trade it for a deuce in a perfect world). Once that's taken care of, YEEE HAAAW!

Thanks for helping me see the error in my calculations though. I'll see if i can dig up some pics. We're actually living in it right now while we look for a suitable building site and house plan for the farm.

 

[TBigLug]

Oh yeah, and the power steering thing. Not too big of a deal for me. I'm built farm boy tough, 6'5 350 and young enough to not know any better lol. My last work truck was an '88 Chevy that was supposed to have power steering but it went out. No biggie, drove it like that for another year or two. That's with a little bitty steering wheel and 33" tires too!

Muffler, yes, muffler will be first, maybe second thing to do. I LOVE the sound of a straight pipe ona turbo but I like driving around without Johnny Law and Nosy Neighbor making complaints every second.

Here's an example of the hitch i would use. Add to this a gooseneck that would pin into the same rails. Says min. height after mounting is 14.5". Need frame height measurements to do additional considering.

 

[gimpyrobb]

Headwizard sells 24-12v converters for the best price you will find. It even has the capability to maintain a battery. Its rated about 30 amps. Then you would just need 24v relays to dump 12v to whatever you wanted.

 

[Flea]

Don't know if you'd want to spend additional money, but another consideration if the bed is too high would be a dolly converter. But, man, that would be a LOOOONG combination!

 

[TBigLug]

Here's some pics of my camper. The height to the pin from what would be level ground is 54.5". Theoretically, if I did the spring over and truly gain 5" of additional height that would put the pin at 59.5". Subtract the 14.5" height of the fifth wheel and my target bed height (without doing anything additional to raise the trailer) is 45". Probably not going to happen with 11.00-20's on the rear (tires alone are 43.1" tall) but could happen with 9.00-20's (~40" tall). Maybe for me it would be worth it to find a way to raise the trailer up a few more inches. I thought about recessing the hitch into the bed some. With 7" of clearance from trailer to pin and 14.5" from plate to bed that's 21.5" of wiggle room. If I recessed the hitch I could gain an additional 6" or so of height not needed and still have 15.5" of room from the bed to the trailer. Should be plenty given I wouldn't be off-roading with the trailer on anyway. Maybe a hinged door to cover the hole for the hitch when it's off the truck. Recessed 6" in bed would give me a target bed height of say, up to 51" without raising the trailer other than spring over-ing it. Plenty of room. Also, I discovered I have 66" of clearence from the pin to the front of the camper. So, as long as I have 60" from the center of my fifth wheel to the back corner of the bed I shouldn't have problems while turning. More incessant mathematical ramblings of a mad man to come later!

Additionally, relays and DC-DC convertor sounds like a top notch idea! That'll probably be the way I go.

Thought about dolly convertor, I drive semi for a living (when there's non-OTR work) and I couldn't imagine backing it up in a crowded campsite. Look out boys, here she comes!!!