Traction: Super Singles or Duals?

[Kalashnikov]

While I'm new to these military trucks, I've had my share of experiences off with trucks. I had always perferred wider tires. It just seems more logical to me since 1. it decreases the pressure on the ground 2. increases your foot print increasing the traction (or chance to find traction) It seems like a wider tire would allows you to "dig" faster to the bottom of the mud since the "shovel" (tire) is bigger whihc would kind of level with the narrow tire theory of cutting down to the bottom. Either way both tires (if they are the same diameter) will reach the bottom under the same circumstances, wheather it cuts through or digs is pretty much only a time factor. If there isn't a bottom to the mud, than both tires are likely to just dig and dig unless you have some momentum going through.

I would think that the width factor wouldn't really be a consideration between the tires. The NDTs are crowned. Sure airring them down will widen the foot print, but it would seem that they would still be of comparable width to air down singles.

ZTo me it would seem like the signles would surely be better offroad. The tread is much more aggressive than the NDTs. Although if you grooved the either of the tires they would be vastly improved. This would also help with the singles on wet roads. I know the Super Swamper I have on my F150 are terrible whne stopping. The more edges the tire has, the better it can grip and displace water. People often groove them to increase their streetability.

I plan on getting a 2.5 ton and using it as a recovery/tow rig for a truck I'm building so my intetions are to make it as offroad capable as possible. Singling it will probably be the first thing I do if I don't buy one already done. I'd also like to start an offroad recovery business so plans for an M816 variant are in the future. Hopefully I'll have the duece by he end of the summer.

 

[duncan]

Also with dual tires you're prone to get debris stuck in between them, which if not cared for properly will go and grind between the two tire's sides and get you into a heap of trouble.
Thats what I know (and see) to be true for regular trucks used for hauling, and I can only assume the problem gets worse when you're going offroad.

Also, you cant really air down dual tires, since the sides will touch pretty soon, and get you into that same heap of trouble.

 

[Blood_of_Tyrants]

I don't have alot of experience . . . but that won't stop me from my $0.02.

1. It seems the military is switching to singles . . there has to be a reason.
2. It seem the OTR truckers are switching to singles. . " " " " " .

I worked at Bridgestone/Firestone for a while and the reason that truckers are going to super singles is simple... money. It cost less to replace four super singles than eight standard tires.

 

[Parker2]

Also with dual tires you're prone to get debris stuck in between them, which if not cared for properly will go and grind between the two tire's sides and get you into a heap of trouble.
Thats what I know (and see) to be true for regular trucks used for hauling, and I can only assume the problem gets worse when you're going offroad.

Also, you cant really air down dual tires, since the sides will touch pretty soon, and get you into that same heap of trouble.

Prone - as in most likely? I have been working off road for 15 years with many different trucks with duallies. In all of those years I have only had this happen once and nothing ill happened. No flat or anything. I would not say that duallies are prone to this. It is possible but not common. And you can lower the pressure on duals with no problem. The Armys been doing it for what - since Patton was chasing Poncho Via!

 

[duncan]

Guess with proper offroad duals its a bit different then. As said, was speaking from road driving experience. Thanks for the info!

 

[emr]

as for something getting stuck between the deuls it can happen, but not all that common, it is not a reason for changing a few thousand trucks thou, fighting in the desert is.I will say the 900 sreies trucks being turned in here in NJ most have had the singles removed years ago and the G177's duals put in there place, why? simple, they drive on the road in NJ, and singles are for off road use, they are dangerous on roads, now like anything else there are alot of well not for me, but thats not the case with a few thousand young and newbie drivers in the Guard. as for carrying loads like i said earlier there is no debate deuls are far superior. as for off road capabilitys the singles will go farther in an apples to apples contest.but will not handle a heavy load off road as good as duels, it all is subject to equal conditons and trucks, No tire set up can do it all, to find one that is what U want is more imoprtant the one u think is the coolest, thats how I do it, its my truck.Now I heard it d\said here and it is sooo true, narrow tires for more than most conditions are better,and in more configurations, and wider are better in a few.each has its day...but it is good to hash out now and again what this are for the newer guys, after all we all started somewhere...

 

[Parker2]

I would agree that in off road use singles would probably be better if there is a bottom to whatever your driving thru (as said before). Here in Florida there is no bottom. There is no bottom to the sand and there is not bottom to the mud. Therefore in my location I would say duals are better. No one set up is all around better. One set up may be better for certain situations and lacking in other situations where the other may be better.

I have seen a few posts where someone said that singles are better in the sand. Please explain this. How can a thiner foot print be better than a wider one in the sand?

Thanks.

 

[jimk]

If cost is taken out of the equation Super single w/CIS would seem to be hard to beat. If something could maybe a flotation tire(s) in front with a larger matching dia modern radial duals in back. (Or, while not to handsome, maybe dual up the frt?)

I like duals. They can offer more. They can be better w/ modern radials. It might be nice to see a comparison - SuperS vs. radial duals. Dropping air press to tire contact should not be a problem if it were just used during the emergency. I have had at least 2 foreign objects get inside and actually take out a side wall* . Both times the other tire was saved when the first went away. This is a safer condition than a SS sidewall failure. You can also continue driving, use one dual as a spare for frt, for a trailer, or someone else in need. I'm sure you can find a problem environment for any config.

NDT's/NDCC's don't offer much beyond a vintage look and low cost.

Just my opinion(s).

* in 2M miles w/big rigs. A wheel chock in loading pit was one. Something I missed seeing in roadway at night was another. I also recall a rock getting tossed out of a local 10w dumper's rear duals maybe 20y ago. It went thru the windshield of the car behind, killing a woman.

 

[underdog]

I worked at Bridgestone/Firestone for a while and the reason that truckers are going to super singles is simple... money. It cost less to replace four super singles than eight standard tires.

Super singles get better fuel mileage. It is a fact.
The reason they have been resisted for many years.
If you blow a duel tire it is aggravating but life goes on.
If you blow a super single, you are where you are till repairs can be made.
As noted before they are terrible on the road in inclement weather.

 

[cranetruck]

..........
As noted before they are terrible on the road in inclement weather.

Can someone expand on this, virtually all front tires are singles, so does it have to do with the tread pattern or are super singles not used on the front axle on commercial rigs?

Interesting thread, like to keep it going for a while.....

 

[jimk]

Most big rigs don't use super wide steering tires because it will increase the turning circle. There are exceptions. Construction trucks, like dumpers, may use a floatation tire because they get off road.

 

[duncan]

Commercial rigs (in europe anyway) have different tyres front and back. Steering and traction thread that is. When you carry a spare, it's a steering thread, cause (I was told) traction thread steers like a bitch.

Steering thread has cutouts running with the driving direction, whereas traction tires have a cross pattern.

Attached image to clarify. (please remove if considered spam, it just was the easiest explanation I could find)

 

[cranetruck]

Patrick (OPCOM) has a good setup on his M109, "steering" tires in the front and dual 1100s in the rear....

 

[army70deuce]

I have been thinking about going with super singles when my current tires wear out...so no time soon...

Here's a point that hasn't been brought up yet and I'm going to throw it out there to see if it makes sense to anyone else.

While we do a lot of convoying in the military there is not always a recovery vehicle or large number of spares around, each truck carries 1 spare whether it is a 10 wheeled PLS or 4 wheel HMMWV. By my reasoning if you're driving on super singles and you lose 1 tire you're ok, though the larger super singles will be a pain to move and change, lose any more than 1 and you're stuck waiting on a recovery vehicle. With the duals by my math you could lose up to 5 tires (1 per side, per axle in the rear and 1 front tire). While you wouldn't be able to haul a lot you could get back to base. Also the smaller NDTs are lighter and easier to move around and change. That 2nd tire that isn't flat would keep the axle off the ground and make it a little easier to change the flat so if you didn't have a jack you could possibly just dig out under the flat tire (would only work if flat was an outside tire).

If I had to drive a long distance with no guarentee of being able to get replacement tires I'd personnally rather have 2xNDTs than 1 larger super single in the bed.

Feel free to shoot holes in my theory, I learn better that way.

 

[DMgunn]

Only one obvious hole in your theory that I could see - the "dig out under the flat tire (would only work if flat was an outside tire)" part.......ask any field service tire guy - the inside dual is the only one that ever fails......the odds of an outside tire failing are lower than the odds of seeing a mermaid or unicorn. Actually the formula for estimating dual failure isn't quite that simple - it requires an algorithm that factors in lack of tool and air availability, number of degrees F below zero or above 100, how close relative humidity is to 100%, wind speed in percentage of mach, precip in inches per minute, and where the vehicle is parked (angle in degrees, amount of traffic or depth of mud/water, etc), among numerous other variables - the only constant being all variables will be against you. For example, the odds of an inside dual failing while rolling into a well-equipped shop are exactly the same as the odds of seeing a mermaid RIDING a unicorn pulling a carriage with D.B. Cooper passing out $100 bills to pedestrians.

Fascinating stuff really.

 

[duncan]

Agreed on the mermaid + unicorn theory. Also, any surface thats soft enough to allow you to dig a hole to replace the outer tire would surely be too weak to support all the weight on the inner tire, especially when you start digging right next to it. But im guessing youre more likely to be staring at a concrete or asphalt surface, which makes digging both very hard, and very expensive when the LEOs find out.

Unless the tire is shredded, you can use CTIS to keep it inflated until the next garage. Also, you could strap the axle to the frame to keep the flat off the ground and keep going like that. Attached a pic from my drivers manual.

For those of you who havent been invaded 60 years ago and thus dont know german Here's the translation

The truck is capable in case of emergencies to drive without one or two wheels (while not on the same axle), when the damaged half-axle is strapped to the frame with a bracket, and the difflocks are engaged.

When mounting the brackts on the front wheels the connections of the air hoses have to be rotated.

 

[Robo McDuff]

I will have to get two newer (used) front tires (11.00 x 20). Commerce not only had loads of the standard US ndt tires, but also other European Nato tires including Michelin XL, Goodyear, and another special Nato type I don't remember seeying a manifacturing name of. Which would be better as a driving-steering tire?

Behind will stay the standard US ndt, cannot afford to buy 10 new or even used tires.

 

[army70deuce]

Ok, that diagram just had me eating crow about a conversation I had with a buddy in Afghanistan. Where can I find that picture in English? I'm assuming it is the translation of a US document in relation to a military vehicle we (read the US) sold to a NATO country? If this diagram deals with something else I get to take my foot out of my mouth.

 

[Karl kostman]

Hey DMgunn your description says your from SE North Dakota I am from Horace, where the heck do you hide your beautiful MVs, I was starting to think I was the only guy on this end of the state that had the OD sickness???
karl

 

[DMgunn]

Well Hello to a fellow OD sickness victim! I doubt anyone but me would find my MVs beautiful in their current condition, but hopefully with more time invested in them that will change...

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