Why the Deuce Doesn't Have These I'll Never Know!

[KsM715]

If its soft enough and slimey enough, lockers wont do any better.

Edit: your comparing apples to walnuts with that. Those are two TOTALLY different trucks. Christ why dont you just put tracks under your truck if your going to compare those. **** I can buy a helo that will never get stuck in the mud.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Does someone 'round these parts own stock in the company that makes these lockers?

 

[flighht2k5]

Well, lets see.

My experience with the Unimog.

On the civilian side, I owned a Swiss 404 for many years.

One the military side, I have 19 years experience working on the 419's the US Army uses as SEE tractors. In fact I have even been responsible for maintaining a fleet that included both 419's and M35A32's and M35A3's in combat.

When my unit fielded the 419's I actually went to the factory training from Freightliner, which included a technician/instructor from the factory in Germany.

Thats right- I not only have owned and worked on my own Unimog, I have been factory trained on them and I have actually been responsible for maintaining a fleet of them and other trucks under combat conditions in Afghanistan.

Guess what- the 419's were way more problematic than any of our other trucks were, and way more problematic than any of our other heavy equipment was. Either way you classed it, they failed.

I replaced a bunch of Unimog axles. Only a few M35 series or 5 ton axles, despite having 10x more of them. Most of the issues caused by the 19 year old operators running diff lock when they shouldn't.

Easy to work on? Not really, not when compared to an M35A2. Ever done a clutch on one? What a pain in the ass.

I know all the Unimog hobbyists see them as the best thing since sliced bread. Good for you. Those of us professionals who have actually used them as intended, in military conflict, will have a much different opinion of them than the hobbyists who go rock crawling on weekends.

Perhaps you should know your audience before calling people ignorant or inexperienced...

Yep I'm sure you have

 

[flighht2k5]

With all due respect? An apology is in order!

For what

 

[flighht2k5]

The deuce is not the end all be all truck. Its average off road. Cool it carries weight. The 419 issues was all the aftermarket crap added on by freightliner. I highly doubt you replaced a bunch of 419 axles, cinsidering they are rated at 4 tons.

 

[Chief_919]

Yeah, well I would disagree with this statement: "... conclusions would have passed a cost/benefit analysis." After all every one of our competitors use air-lockers in their trucks-- how expensive can it be. The facts are simple if you want a truck that works well off-road use Lockers. If you want a truck that gets stuck easily off-road use open differentials. This is not a matter that requires a degree in Engineering. All one has to do is a little empirical testing: if your truck gets stuck going up a simple hill that would seem like a weakness in the design. If your truck spends more time stuck than it does reaching the destination that is a weakness. And since you've driven your M35A2 or M35A3 off road for any period of time you'll find that your truck gets rather bogged down in many simple conditions.

This video is of me driving over a section of soft ground only two or three times. If I had lockers this wouldn't have happened to me. I would call this a weakness in the design. If you feel it isn't-- what I can I say. I disagree. You can call it what you want.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L6WvJWwTXSU[/media]

Compare it to truck:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mi8SlYGt0YMthis[/media]


Tatra T-815 series trucks or T-813 either one comes with fully locking differentials and independent suspensions systems. These trucks have had their engines tuned but the drive trains are basically Military Stock. To me this this a superior design to the M35A2's systems and they've been service just as long as the M35A2's.

OK, I think I now understand what you are not grasping.

Repeat after me:

The M35 was not designed primarily as an off-road truck.

Now repeat that until it sinks in.

The use of the M35 is 99% on roads of some sort.

Off road ability was down the list of considerations in design.

Your Tatras are great off road, yes. But not so great on road (yes, I have driven one).

The only time the M35 series design was deemed to need lockers was when the USMC found they needed them for beach landings. So they added them.

The US Army has 50+ years running them, and of 5 decades it simply hasn't been an issue for the intended use (that is not primarily off road). I ran them and 800 and 900 series 5 tons in Afghanistan, home of the crappiest roads on earth, and open diffs were not an issue. I may not have viewed as many Youtibe videos of trucks as some "experts", but I have real world operational experience doing real world missions in them.

I have also driven an M35 with Detroit Lockers in snow and ice. Not a good thing- they want to just go straight. Operation on snowy and icy roads is more often encountered in the M35's missions for the military than extreme off road conditions- and open diffs win there.

If you are judging just on off road ability, then yes many trucks are better, If you are judging on ability to accomplish the total mission they are designed for, the absence of locking differentials simply isn't an issue.

 

[doghead]

Did we loose any wars that the 2.5 ton trucks were used in?

I wish David Doyle would post on this thread, he should know why the truck was designed and built as it is.

 

[FMJ]

"Tatra T-815 series trucks or T-813 either one comes with fully locking differentials and independent suspensions systems. These trucks have had their engines tuned but the drive trains are basically Military Stock. To me this this a superior design to the M35A2's systems and they've been service just as long as the M35A2's"

So go f ing buy one. . . .

Wait, I have a better idea,

 

[dittle]

So you're comparing something that is an 8x8 based on new designs to a 6x6 from the 1950's design? Based on your comparison video of the Tatra trucks I would like to see what happened to whatever he was hauling in them going over terrain in that thing.....better yet do that with a full load on and see what happens to the drive train. Some people need to grab both ears, pull very hard and extracate their head from their ... when making statements like you did.

 

[Rolling_Eudaimonia]

If its soft enough and slimey enough, lockers wont do any better.

Edit: your comparing apples to walnuts with that. Those are two TOTALLY different trucks. Christ why dont you just put tracks under your truck if your going to compare those. **** I can buy a helo that will never get stuck in the mud.

Actually, the Tatra T-815 or T-813 trucks do everything that M35A2 does: fuel tankers, recovery trucks, cargo, personal carriers, and so on and so forth. They run in 6x6, 8x8, 10x10 or 12x12 configurations. The point I'm making is simply this, the Tatra Trucks were designed to operate well both off-road and on road, they have the capabilities to operate at the same road speeds as the M35A2 but also superior off road capabilities. If I had the cash at the time of this purchase I would have purchased the T-813 series truck in 8x8 configuration.

 

[Rolling_Eudaimonia]

"Tatra T-815 series trucks or T-813 either one comes with fully locking differentials and independent suspensions systems. These trucks have had their engines tuned but the drive trains are basically Military Stock. To me this this a superior design to the M35A2's systems and they've been service just as long as the M35A2's"

So go f ing buy one. . . .

Wait, I have a better idea,

I'm saving the cash for one... But first I want my M35A2 just the way I want it.

 

[Rolling_Eudaimonia]

So you're comparing something that is an 8x8 based on new designs to a 6x6 from the 1950's design? Based on your comparison video of the Tatra trucks I would like to see what happened to whatever he was hauling in them going over terrain in that thing.....better yet do that with a full load on and see what happens to the drive train. Some people need to grab both ears, pull very hard and extracate their head from their ... when making statements like you did.

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHaj5bDSgRA&feature=related[/media]

Well read the specs at Tatra.A.s...


And the Tatra design has been around since like 1923.... The basic central tube and swinging independent half-shafts. They've used this design on trucks since the 1930's up to today.

These trucks can work in areas with a full load that would amaze you.

 

[Rolling_Eudaimonia]

Did we loose any wars that the 2.5 ton trucks were used in?

I wish David Doyle would post on this thread, he should know why the truck was designed and built as it is.

Vietnam... we lost.

 

[FMJ]

There it is, politics, KILL IT, KILL THE THREAD!!!!!!!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5m1A7zoIcc

 

[Rolling_Eudaimonia]

OK, I think I now understand what you are not grasping.

Repeat after me:

The M35 was not designed primarily as an off-road truck.

Now repeat that until it sinks in.

The use of the M35 is 99% on roads of some sort.

Off road ability was down the list of considerations in design.

Your Tatras are great off road, yes. But not so great on road (yes, I have driven one).

The only time the M35 series design was deemed to need lockers was when the USMC found they needed them for beach landings. So they added them.

The US Army has 50+ years running them, and of 5 decades it simply hasn't been an issue for the intended use (that is not primarily off road). I ran them and 800 and 900 series 5 tons in Afghanistan, home of the crappiest roads on earth, and open diffs were not an issue. I may not have viewed as many Youtibe videos of trucks as some "experts", but I have real world operational experience doing real world missions in them.

I have also driven an M35 with Detroit Lockers in snow and ice. Not a good thing- they want to just go straight. Operation on snowy and icy roads is more often encountered in the M35's missions for the military than extreme off road conditions- and open diffs win there.

If you are judging just on off road ability, then yes many trucks are better, If you are judging on ability to accomplish the total mission they are designed for, the absence of locking differentials simply isn't an issue.

I have some problems with your statements given the design of the truck itself. But sure I'll bite it isn't an off road truck. So what than are 2.5 ton trucks doing with things like winches, extreme fording capability, extreme suspension travel, ground clearance and 6wd? These aren't features you find in a 1950's road going truck. I mean why not just buy a regular Mack truck with tandem rear ends and use that instead??? It would seem to make more sense to me than build a truck with features clearly designed for off-road use and then use it only 1% of the time off road.

And Open Differentials do not win in Snow or Ice. In the 1930's the Walter Truck Company of Guilderland Center, Ny developed the Walter Snow Fighter with 100% positive traction. They did this with a system of torque proportioning differentials that sought out the wheels with the most traction and sent power to them only. This way a truck with All -Wheel drive would be capable of being used year round. It would allow the wheels to slip when necessary and send power to the wheel that grip. The point is it has been known for decades that traction is king on roads or off... In any condition the vehicle with more traction is superior to the one with less traction. And in Snow and Ice positive traction wins over open differentials any day of the week.

I know I've tested out the M35's snow capabilities exetensively late given that I live in a town with an annual fall snow of 100 plus inches. The truck needs differentials locks to be effective on even pavement with chains on in many conditions given the crappy NDTS...

 

[Rolling_Eudaimonia]

There it is, politics, KILL IT, KILL THE THREAD!!!!!!!!


[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5m1A7zoIcc[/media]

That's not politics... He asked did the M35A2 serve in a war that we lost-- well technically speaking the Vietnam Conflict was the first time out for the M35's and we lost it. So, yes, we lost a conflict in which the M35 served. I am simply stating a fact. I don't care about the reasons for the loss. Just that the answer fits his question. And he could debate the status of the conflict as not being a war. But we then we could go with the Korea War in which the UN didn't exactly win either. A 2.5 Ton truck the GMC version was used in that conflict.

 

[SasquatchSanta]

I've got them... I've got one in my garage right now-- two more come tomorrow via UPS. All I need now are the A3 Axles and CTIS system. I'll post videos. However, don't you think what really needs to be done is well a demonstration in reality?

I was happy just writing about my plans for the truck. Then I read this and I thought really-- so I figured I would have some fun.

This post doesn't make sense. Then again --- if you’re just playing everyone on this forum to stir them up it makes perfect sense. How do you know that "two more come tomorrow via UPS?" How do you project into the future?

Also --- You say "I was happy just writing about my plans for the truck. Then I read this and I thought really-- so I figured I would have some fun."

Is your idea of fun jacking up the troops? What gives? Is this some sort of a lab assignment experiment for your next thesis?

In another thread you recently posted a comment about not installing the lockers in "The Duke" --- Instead, waiting to build a "Super Deuce." Why doesn’t this surprise me? I personally don’t think you’re building or working on anything but your own amusement.
This thread has been an “All Hat – No Cattle” scenario from the beginning.

My opinion on the concept of eudaimonia and this whole sorted situation:

The Greek word Eudaimonia, (pronounced you-day-‘mon-nee-ah), according to the ancient Greek philosopher Aristotle is the highest and most constant source of happiness. Eudaimonia is the act and art of being happy --- a state of well-being that can only be achieved by doing good work. To be “eudaimon” is to be successful; therefore, the pursuance of eudaimonia is life’s biggest challenge.

Different people find their own form of Eudaimonia in different ways. Could it be that you have found your own personal brand of Eudaimonia by jacking up and talking down to what you somehow consider to be a bunch of under educated knuckle dragging mouth breathing underlings? “IF” that is the case the only plausible message to you is “Physician, heal thyself.” Sorry if this sounds a bit harsh but after your "After all I have a degree in philosophy and I've recently entered a MFA for film" comment you opened yourself up.

Vince Lombardi eloquently defined the meaning of eudaimonia when he said “I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious.”

“If” you are indeed quenching your thirst for the joy and happiness of eudaimonia by continually stirring up the SS membership you have indeed been victorious. It seems to me that you continue to pleasurably entertain yourself at our annoyance.

I wasn’t going to comment on the latest developments of this thread even though I’ve viewed it several times in utter disgust. Your bringing Vietnam into it was a game changer. By bringing up Vietnam the way you did you’re brushing up against a raw edge that is a bigger than any stupid truck fetish. You need to wait 25 or 30 years to give all us Vietnam vets time to pass before you start pontificating about Vietnam. Be careful.

In my opinion it’s time for SS members to wake up and realize that we’re being played and quit nibbling on the bait that is so successfully being used to troll with.

My apology to the Mods if this post causes a problem but I felt it needed to be said.

 

[Rolling_Eudaimonia]

This post doesn't make sense. Then again --- if you’re just playing everyone on this forum to stir them up it makes perfect sense. How do you know that "two more come tomorrow via UPS?" How do you project into the future?

Also --- You say "I was happy just writing about my plans for the truck. Then I read this and I thought really-- so I figured I would have some fun."

Is your idea of fun jacking up the troops? What gives? Is this some sort of a lab assignment experiment for your next thesis?

In another thread you recently posted a comment about not installing the lockers in "The Duke" --- Instead, waiting to build a "Super Deuce." Why doesn’t this surprise me? I personally don’t think you’re building or working on anything but your own amusement.
This thread has been an “All Hat – No Cattle” scenario from the beginning.

My opinion on the concept of eudaimonia and this whole sorted situation:

The Greek word Eudaimonia, (pronounced you-day-‘mon-nee-ah), according to the ancient Greek philosopher Aristotle is the highest and most constant source of happiness. Eudaimonia is the act and art of being happy --- a state of well-being that can only be achieved by doing good work. To be “eudaimon” is to be successful; therefore, the pursuance of eudaimonia is life’s biggest challenge.

Different people find their own form of Eudaimonia in different ways. Could it be that you have found your own personal brand of Eudaimonia by jacking up and talking down to what you somehow consider to be a bunch of under educated knuckle dragging mouth breathing underlings? “IF” that is the case the only plausible message to you is “Physician, heal thyself.” Sorry if this sounds a bit harsh but after your "After all I have a degree in philosophy and I've recently entered a MFA for film" comment you opened yourself up.

Vince Lombardi eloquently defined the meaning of eudaimonia when he said “I firmly believe that any man's finest hour, the greatest fulfillment of all that he holds dear, is that moment when he has worked his heart out in a good cause and lies exhausted on the field of battle - victorious.”

“If” you are indeed quenching your thirst for the joy and happiness of eudaimonia by continually stirring up the SS membership you have indeed been victorious. It seems to me that you continue to pleasurably entertain yourself at our annoyance.

I wasn’t going to comment on the latest developments of this thread even though I’ve viewed it several times in utter disgust. Your bringing Vietnam into it was a game changer. By bringing up Vietnam the way you did you’re brushing up against a raw edge that is a bigger than any stupid truck fetish. You need to wait 25 or 30 years to give all us Vietnam vets time to pass before you start pontificating about Vietnam. Be careful.

In my opinion it’s time for SS members to wake up and realize that we’re being played and quit nibbling on the bait that is so successfully being used to troll with.

My apology to the Mods if this post causes a problem but I felt it needed to be said.

1) I knew two of my ARB's would come on Thursday because well Seven Springs Complete was nice enough to send me the UPS tracking information. So I was able track my packages delivery times from the moment they sent them out the door in Iowa from their warehouse until it reached my front door step in NYS.

2) I was happy talking about my truck and what I wanted to do it. Then I read how much of a nut job I was for being honest about the truck. And I thought you know what let's just show the reality of the trucks vs that of trucks that were much better designed. I like driving my truck around a lot. I really do like the M35A2 but, I still think it could have been designed a little better so I'm fixing it the way I want it. Personally, I think the US Government procured a truck that was limited for the applications intended. And that was the entire point of the thread.

3) Actually, I'm a philosopher-- I and happened to find my well being while driving my truck... That is it. Trucks roll right? So that is the Rolling part meaning motion of the truck-- well being is correct. So It is just Rolling Well Being which is what i get from my Truck when I'm driving in it.


4) You're annoyed because I'm merely honest enough to tell the truth about the truck. A truck that in the Operators Manual TM9-2320-361-10 Section II: Vehicle Description and Data, General 1-13 (page 36 on the PDF)I quote:

"a. The 2.5 ton, 6x6, M44A2 series trucks are tactical vehicles designed for use over all types of roads and cross country terrain, and in extremes high or low humidity and temperatures. "

That to me says the truck was designed at the start to be used in a wide variety of terrains including cross-country where no roads exist. So I'm really unclear after the manual clearly states it is can go basically anywhere the truck is now be stated as a 99% of the time road going truck.

5) Vietnam. Did I not tell the truth? The M44 series trucks were in conflict, were they not? And we didn't meet our objectives of the conflict. That is all I stated. There was no dig at the people who served during the war. I just merely stated facts about the out come of the war.

6) Weren't you the one who said I was crazy for wanting to drive from Alaska to Argentina on Bio-diesel...

7) I'll tell you what really keeps me coming back... It is reading the posts of people who say things like the truck is designed for operation on primary or secondary roads 99% of the time. Because one minute everyone here is talking about how "go-any where" the truck is than next minute the truck is for roads of some type only basically. I don't get it really, those two radically different types of designs basically a road truck and truck like the M35A2 which is more universal in application. And clearly the M35A2 has all the features on it basically to be a really great off road truck except for the most critical: positive traction systems. So I really cannot figure out why my surprise to the US Military's instance on a truck that isn't great for the intended roll it was to fill is so hard to understand. I cannot see why people cannot be honest about things. You know sometimes other people make vehicles that surpass your own. Instead of putting our heads in the ground we should copy as much of that other design as possible and improve on it and make it our own. That is my belief.

 

[jimk]

Vietnam... we lost.

#9 Myth: The United States lost the war in Vietnam .

Fact: The American military was not defeated in Vietnam . The American military did not lose a battle of any consequence. From a military standpoint, it was almost an unprecedented performance. General Westmoreland quoting Douglas Pike, a professor at the University of California , Berkley a major military defeat for the VC and NVA.

THE UNITED STATES DID NOT LOSE THE WAR IN VIETNAM , THE SOUTH VIETNAMESE DID. The fall of Saigon happened 30 April 1975, two years AFTER the American military left Vietnam . The last American troops departed in their entirety 29 March 1973.


FACT: How could we lose a war we had already stopped fighting? We fought to an agreed stalemate. The peace settlement was signed in Paris on 27 January 1973.

* It called for release of all U.S. prisoners, withdrawal of U.S. forces, limitation of both sides' forces inside South Vietnam and a commitment to peaceful reunification.

*The 140,000 evacuees in April 1975 during the fall of Saigon consisted almost entirely of civilians and Vietnamese military, NOT American military running for their lives.

*There were almost twice as many casualties in Southeast Asia (primarily Cambodia ) the first two years after the fall of Saigon in 1975 then there were during the ten years the U.S. was involved in Vietnam .
*Thanks for the perceived loss and the countless assassinations and torture visited upon Vietnamese, Laotians, and Cambodians goes mainly to the American media and their undying support-by-misrepresentation of the anti-War movement in the United States.
*As with much of the Vietnam War, the news media misreported and misinterpreted the 1968 Tet Offensive. It was reported as an overwhelming success for the Communist forces and a decided defeat for the U.S. Forces. Nothing could be further from the truth. Despite initial victories by the Communists forces, the Tet Offensive resulted in a major defeat of those forces. General Vo Nguyen Giap, the designer of the Tet Offensive, is considered by some as ranking with Wellington , Grant, Lee and MacArthur as a great commander. Still, militarily, the Tet Offensive was a total defeat of the Communist forces on all fronts. It resulted in the death of some 45,000 NVA troops and the complete, if not total destruction of the Viet Cong elements in South Vietnam . The Organization of the Viet Cong Units in the South never recovered. The Tet Offensive succeeded on only one front and that was the News front and the political arena. This was another example in the Vietnam War of an inaccuracy becoming the perceived truth. However, inaccurately reported, the News Media made the Tet Offensive famous.


http://www.steelsoldiers.com/conversations/38506-vietnam-facts-vs-fiction.html

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[Rolling_Eudaimonia]

#9 Myth: The United States lost the war in Vietnam .

Fact: The American military was not defeated in Vietnam . The American military did not lose a battle of any consequence. From a military standpoint, it was almost an unprecedented performance. General Westmoreland quoting Douglas Pike, a professor at the University of California , Berkley a major military defeat for the VC and NVA.

THE UNITED STATES DID NOT LOSE THE WAR IN VIETNAM , THE SOUTH VIETNAMESE DID. The fall of Saigon happened 30 April 1975, two years AFTER the American military left Vietnam . The last American troops departed in their entirety 29 March 1973.


FACT: How could we lose a war we had already stopped fighting? We fought to an agreed stalemate. The peace settlement was signed in Paris on 27 January 1973.

* It called for release of all U.S. prisoners, withdrawal of U.S. forces, limitation of both sides' forces inside South Vietnam and a commitment to peaceful reunification.

*The 140,000 evacuees in April 1975 during the fall of Saigon consisted almost entirely of civilians and Vietnamese military, NOT American military running for their lives.

*There were almost twice as many casualties in Southeast Asia (primarily Cambodia ) the first two years after the fall of Saigon in 1975 then there were during the ten years the U.S. was involved in Vietnam .
*Thanks for the perceived loss and the countless assassinations and torture visited upon Vietnamese, Laotians, and Cambodians goes mainly to the American media and their undying support-by-misrepresentation of the anti-War movement in the United States.
*As with much of the Vietnam War, the news media misreported and misinterpreted the 1968 Tet Offensive. It was reported as an overwhelming success for the Communist forces and a decided defeat for the U.S. Forces. Nothing could be further from the truth. Despite initial victories by the Communists forces, the Tet Offensive resulted in a major defeat of those forces. General Vo Nguyen Giap, the designer of the Tet Offensive, is considered by some as ranking with Wellington , Grant, Lee and MacArthur as a great commander. Still, militarily, the Tet Offensive was a total defeat of the Communist forces on all fronts. It resulted in the death of some 45,000 NVA troops and the complete, if not total destruction of the Viet Cong elements in South Vietnam . The Organization of the Viet Cong Units in the South never recovered. The Tet Offensive succeeded on only one front and that was the News front and the political arena. This was another example in the Vietnam War of an inaccuracy becoming the perceived truth. However, inaccurately reported, the News Media made the Tet Offensive famous.


http://www.steelsoldiers.com/conversations/38506-vietnam-facts-vs-fiction.html

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I'm not going to be baited into this argument. What ever you want. The US Always Wins... The Trucks are just brilliant in design. I know nothing. I'm just a trouble maker... All of you are so much better...