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Definition of "multi-fuel"

Preacherboy

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I have a guy on another forum trying to apply what I believe is an improper definition of multi-fuel. He claims that a CUCV is mult-fuel. Since it can run off of diesel, jet fuel, kerosene, home heating oil, veggie oil, and motor oil.

I told him that only the m35a2 and some 5-tons have a true multi-fuel engine and applying that definition to any other diesel is potentially dangerous. I said the term multi-fuel implies you can run gas or diesel and if you put gas in a CUCV something bad will happen.

Am I wrong?

If I'm out of line I will definately apologize to this guy and I will start calling our church bus with a DT466 a multi-fuel vehicle.
 

Bighurt

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Everything you mentioned aside from veggie and motor oil are just grades of diesel essentially, basically the same fuel. The later Veggie and Motor can't be used stright in any diesel engine without modification. And all are compression based fuels, derived from raw petroleum at a particular fractional distillate of petroleum fuel oil.

Gasoline and it've various grades are a combustable fuel. Comprissed of mostly hydrocarbons obtained by the fractional distillation of raw petroleum.

Only a muilti-fuel as used on our MV's can run both Diesel and Gasoline because of the compression compensator.
 
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wreckerman893

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Most diesels will tolerate some alternative fuels.....that being said you could call a CUCV a flex-fuel rather than a multi-fuel.

As stated above if you put straight gasoline in a CUCV you will cause major engine damage.

The Multi-fuel can use gasoline as an emergeny fuel but will not do well on a diet of straight gas......it is recommended by the TM to mix oil with gasoline if possible (at least I think I remember reading it there.....been a while since I read the whole thing).

I have used Aviation Gas in a Multi (discouraged by the data plate on the dash) but I cut it with a lot of 30 weight oil....it ran fine but smoked like a tar kettle. It was a dire emergency since no diesel was available where I was at.
 

hoop

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va
"Only a muilti-fuel as used on our MV's can run both Diesel and Gasoline because of the compression compensator."

I think it is the compression ratio....maybe Cranetruck will chime in?
 

chicklin

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I believe what make the LDT/LDS engines a multi-fuel (at least distinctly from other diesel engines) is the shape of the piston cup and the spray pattern of the injectors. I suppose the high compression ratio is another aspect. These things are specifically designed to run a wide range of fuels. A "normal" diesel engine is capable of burning some different things only because there are several different types of fuel that will burn when compressed to a certain ratio. I would just call it a by-product of being a diesel engine in the first place, rather than a purposeful design.
 

Preacherboy

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North Branch, MI
So...what you are saying is that you would never dream of calling a CUCV a "multi-fuel"?

I will send the guy over to read this thread...in another forum, over and over he has been telling people that the CUCV is a multi-fuel...just trying to set him straight and he acts like I'm crazy!
 

Bighurt

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Ouch! Bighurt, you just hurt my head!:cry:
Essentially when you boil a barrel of crude in a fractional distillation chamber at 150°C you'll get 15-19 gallons of gasoline. At 200°C you'll get 10 gallons or so of kerosene. At 300°C you'll get 9 gallons or so of Diesel. 340°C you'll get Fuel oil and after 400°C all your left with is asphalt and other gunk.

I found the info awhile back when I was boggled at Diesel prices rising so much vs when I was a child. Based on current transportation requirements the US needs 50% of the crude refined into Gasoline. To do this they have to "crack" the heavier products Kerosene and Diesel into gasoline through a different refinment process. Thus resulting in less Diesel. Many powerplant Diesel motors and certain locomotives used to Run Bunker C fuel oil. Now they use a grade of Diesel. This over taxes the refinement of Diesel, which is now in more demand than in previous years and so little of it is directly yielded from refinement.

Thus Diesel and Gasoline cost nearly the same. Now if some one could stop the EPA from stopping the building of refineries we'd use US fuel, locally vs transporting it across the contry twice...
 

Barrman

Well-known member
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Location
Giddings, Texas
As pointed out above, any diesel will use a variety of fuels with the same basic hydrocarbon count. This does not include the newer computer controlled emission diesels made since 2006. Run as good as straight diesel? Your results will vary.

Because of the piston design, intake valve design and injector placement on the LDS and LDT engines. They will burn all the fuels listed above plus some others. Nothing else has that combination.

Then there is the injection pump. The IP on a LDS or LDT engine is a pretty robust part. It is still delicate though. 2 or 3 micron sized rust particles will still kill it. Thinner will make the orings come apart and leave you sitting on the side of the road too.

I am not on my computer otherwise I would post it. There is a great report on this site somewhere from after Desert Storm. They had super high numbers of CUCV trucks break down over there. The report list out how the 6.2 IP was not designed for gasoline use and when even lighter JP was used. They died very regularly. Gasoline just makes it so you drive less time before you are walking. None of the engines in the report ran long enough on gas to investigate piston damage, valve damage and the other problems caused by super high heat inside the engine and a fast combustion fuel.

You can point all this out to the guy you are talking about. He probably won't listen until his IP drive shaft snaps off or he burns through a piston.
 
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merlot566jka

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it is not the compression ratio, as the compression ratio in the 6.2l is almost the same as our deuces.

it is not the fuel density compensator, that only helps the injection pump with metering fuels of different weight.

IT IS THE DESIGN OF THE ENGINE THAT MAKES IT A MULTIFUEL!!

The MAN combustion process is used to burn other fuels safely. In this process the fuel is introduced into the combustion chamber in a spray rather than a mist. The intake port and valve are configured in such a manner to cause a tremedous swirl of air into the chamber. this swirling air and the fuel stuck to the walls of the bowl allow for a SLOW BURN. The fuel is kept on the walls of the combustion chamber (in the piston itself) to aide in control of the burn rate.

A diesel injects fuel at the point where it will ignite almost imediately due to the heat and combustion. If gasoline were used, it would burn entirely too fast and too hot and destroy the engine very quickly. Even though a diesel engine uses a slower burning fuel as compared to gasoline, it is still considered as a "fast burn" design.

A gasoline engine has the fuel mixed with the air and it is then compressed and ignited with a spark plug vs compression. if you were to run a gasoline engine on diesel, it would likely not run at all. There just isnt enough heat, nor is the fuel at a high enough pressure to be injected properly. Gasoline engines are typically a "fast burn" design as well.

Now because the compression ratio is so high on the detriot/GM 6.2l some may think it will burn anything. And they are partially right. it will burn gasoline, along with the aluminum in the piston if it were ran on gasoline. It can burn other fuels similar to diesel, as most diesel engines will.

This guy is severly mis-informed. But have fun with him, bet a dollar that you can get farther on 10 gallons of gasoline in your deuce than he can on 10 gallons of gasoline in his CUCV. See if he starts to think twice.

I recommend, to anyone who actually cares what a multifuel is actually comprised of, to buy 'The Internal-Combustion Engine in Theory and Practice' vol. 1 & 2 by Charles Fayette and Taylor. This is probably one of the few text books that have any real data on the MAN combustion process.

..."The M.A.N. "Meurer" Combustion system Shows a combustion system developed about 1954 by Maschinenfabrik AugsburgNurnberg A.G. of Germany for small, high-speed engines. It differs from other open chamber engines in being designed so that the fuel spray impinges tangentially on, and spreads over, the surace of a spherical cavity in the piston.
It is known that, except perhaps at light loads, there is some impingement of the spray on the combustion chamber walls in all successful Diesel engines. However, until the advent of the Meurer design it had generally been assumed that fuel spray impingement was undesirable. The theory behind this system is that enough of the spray will ignite before impingement so that the delay period will be normal, while the bulk of the spray will have to evaporate from the cavity walls prior to combustion. Thus, the second stage of the combustion process is slowed down avoiding excessive rates of pressure rise.
In practice this engine gives good perfromance even with fuels of exceedingly poor ignition quality, such as motor gasoline. Its fuel economy appears to be extremely good for an engine of small size. From this fact it may be concluded that the third stage of combustion is not unduly extended, and that spray impingement can be employed with useful results."

There is more data in these two books about the MAN process. I would advise anyone who would like to give advice to others about how a multifuel works, to read these books first.
 
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chicklin

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Kansas City, MO
So...what you are saying is that you would never dream of calling a CUCV a "multi-fuel"?

I will send the guy over to read this thread...in another forum, over and over he has been telling people that the CUCV is a multi-fuel...just trying to set him straight and he acts like I'm crazy!
It's a question of semantics, really. To the guys on this forum that own them "multi-fuel" means something entirely different than how others might interpret it more generically.
 

Barrman

Well-known member
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Location
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Seems about all of us posted or where writting the correct answers at the same time.

By the way, this is probably the 238th thread with the same stuff listed out on this topic.
 

dozer1

Member
833
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Location
Sargeant, Minnesota
Preacherboy, I dont think you owe him any apology for telling him what you did. Seems like you were accurate to me. Invite this guy to come and register here at SS and tell us all about his CUCV multi-fuel. He would be sure to get some posts to his thread.
 
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