Sunday winching gone wrong...

[Danger Ranger]

Job well done, too bad on the breakage and time gone...it happens.

We have a small excavating business here with a backhoe (410 Deere) and dozer (D3), plus the other older, retired and worn out models (1 ea machine) big toys help, and great to have one to back the other up. Antique tractors are nice too, they have torque if you know what I mean.

At least it wasn't this: (not me)

 

[Csm Davis]

Fair warning stuck trackhoes will break the 45,000 lbs rear wench also ask me why I have a new one

 

[Truckoholic]

Myself and my dad have had our share of weak hydraulic'd rental excavators stuck bad in the mud. ha ha. Luckily we had our John Deere 710 backhoe to help pull them out. When they don't even have enough hydraulic power to pull themselves out of trouble, it is really pathetic! It was obvious that the rental company derates their power to try to prevent them from hurting themselves when careless renters are operating them, but sometimes it gets you into more trouble!

 

[jimk]

Fleetpride on Spencer St made my 5 ton pto shaft from some yokes I gave them. I think Frey on Eastern Ave makes them too. I have welded up my own in the past. The yoke has a pilot for the tube so it is very hard to get the alignment wrong.

 

[doghead]

Both ends of the drive shaft looked ok. I will just drop it off at Fleetpride and let them do their magic.

 

[LanceRobson]

dh, given how deep that rascal was mired the mire resistance alone was likely twice the excavator's weight. Add in the slope resistance from the slope it needed to come up and the inability to get a pull down the long axis of the tracks it sure was stuck bad.

I'd guess that short of an M88 with most of the cable off the 140K main winch drum you'd have been straining things pretty heavily on a sinlge part pull no matter what MV you used to pull it out. Crabbing it out laterally was likely the only option.

I hope you gave the operator a dope slap for being in there without matting and a support vehicle....

Are they paying for the damage?

Lance

 

[doghead]

The operator was the son of the guy doing the job. He was the hardest working guy there yesterday and took "orders" very well from everyone. Waist deep in mud with a shovel, ready to do whatever I asked. The other 2 guys were neighborhood volunteers. The other wrecker is a friend of mine and he was paid commercial rates. I was told he will pay for all my damages and my time. I'm not worried, he is a local camp owner and he knows what a bind he was in, and appreciates the help he received. The work he was doing is for a non-profit group of local property owners, trying to improve a navigable waterway that we all use.

I've been in his shoes before. Given the situation, we had to try. I think we did pretty darn good, for what we had.

BTW, the machine was up on higher hard ground, but it slid sideways, off the upper level of hard ground. He had the tracks parallel to the shore line(allowing it to slide easier in the grouser grooves). He was trying to tread lightly along the shoreline. If he had been using it with the tracks facing the water(but requiring constant reposition) he may have avoided the sideways slide. If he could have seen the future, he probably would have stayed in bed yesterday morning(I may have also!).

Unless your the guilty person, It's hard to properly place the blame.

 

[spicergear]

So trying to move a stuck 55,000lb machine with cable rated for a little over 40,000lbs with a 20,000lb winch? <--the snapped cable and driveshaft aren't Murphy's Law in affect this time.

PEOPLE- I know I'll get some flak about this but the factory level wind set up for the 20,000lb Garwoods is inevitably going to do damage. I think by now it's fairly evident I've done a decent amout of winching and virtually always on my own so I have to know what's going on. The level wind set up WILL overtravel and consider yourself fortunate if it trolley's back across the bridge every time. What happens is the trolley can go further than the sides of the winch spool before they get to the short factory stops. When this happens the cable will get to the side of the spool and the begin to stack on itself because it is trying to pay the cable in past the side of the spool. What is supposed to happen is it pays across and get to the spool sides, then when that first wind on the next layer happens, the cable under pressure will follow that as it threads its way across the spool and forces the trolley to follow and travel back across the bridge. On the 20,000lb Garwood on the back of my Mog, I had to make spacer/travel stops so the trolley would travel across and stop shy of the spool sides that way it would be SURE travel back the opposite way.

There are a lot of flaws in mass production...this is one for the level wind that I don't think many people have seen. Another thing is that IF the cable stacks up two, three, or possibly 4 plies just against the spool side waiting for it to snap down so the trolley will start traveling back the other direction, IF/WHEN that snaps down you're going to have a tremendous shock on the winch and cable and driveline.

 

[doghead]

SG, that sounds exactly like what happened to me. The spool and cable was clearly stacked up as you described, when the (new) cable failed.

As for the weights involved, what is not clear in the pics is the fact that the M819 was about 35 feet higher than the track hoe.

When I was winching (single line because we lacked additional sufficient rigging), the hoe arm was fully extended, I was pulling at the dipper pivot point. That was about 40' above the tracks. I was successful in lifting/tilting it, out of the mud and he may have been able to drive it sideways out if the cable had not snapped(from the level wind issue).

At no time, was I trying to slide or pull the hoe out with my truck.

Another thing is that IF the cable stacks up two, three, or possibly 4 plies just against the spool side waiting for it to snap down so the trolley will start traveling back the other direction, IF/WHEN that snaps down you're going to have a tremendous shock on the winch and cable and drive line.

I am pretty confident that the cable only broke because of the tensioner/level winder failing to function well(design issue)



I am surprised and disappointed that the drive shaft failed, before the shear pin did. It is 40 years old and it did just take a serious torque release from a cable snap..

 

[Excuse Me]

The operator was the son of the guy doing the job. He was the hardest working guy there yesterday and took "orders" very well from everyone. Waist deep in mud with a shovel, ready to do whatever I asked. The other 2 guys were neighborhood volunteers. The other wrecker is a friend of mine and he was paid commercial rates. I was told he will pay for all my damages and my time. I'm not worried, he is a local camp owner and he knows what a bind he was in, and appreciates the help he received. The work he was doing is for a non-profit group of local property owners, trying to improve a navigable waterway that we all use.

I've been in his shoes before. Given the situation, we had to try. I think we did pretty darn good, for what we had.

BTW, the machine was up on higher hard ground, but it slid sideways, off the upper level of hard ground. He had the tracks parallel to the shore line(allowing it to slide easier in the grouser grooves). He was trying to tread lightly along the shoreline. If he had been using it with the tracks facing the water(but requiring constant reposition) he may have avoided the sideways slide. If he could have seen the future, he probably would have stayed in bed yesterday morning(I may have also!).

Unless your the guilty person, It's hard to properly place the blame.

Words that I would use to describe this reply are, wisdom, generosity, kindness, and understanding.
Thanks for being such. If only more people were to have those attributes.

 

[LanceRobson]

BTW, the machine was up on higher hard ground, but it slid sideways, off the upper level of hard ground. He had the tracks parallel to the shore line(allowing it to slide easier in the grouser grooves).

Ouch, I've been in APCs and recovery vehicles when they slid sideways down slope in mud or on icy terrain and it's sickening feeling knowing that you no longer have any control over where the vehicle is going or which side will be up when it gets there.

Lance

 

[GamaGoatGirl]

More pictures...

 

[GamaGoatGirl]

Almost done!

 

[wreckerman893]

When you're up to your arse in aligators it's the wrong time to remember the original intent was to drain the swamp.

Ya did good Son.

A good war story for the GA Rally campfire.

 

[M35A2-AZ]

What a great story now that it is out and no one was hurt, sorry about your truck.
Thanks for all the pics!!

 

[wreckerman893]

Not to trouble shoot you but were you using mechanical advantage via snatch blocks?

 

[doghead]

Not to trouble shoot you but were you using mechanical advantage via snatch blocks?

No sir, I was not.

I posted this, to both learn/teach, and entertain. All troubleshooting is appreciated. (Spicergears comments confirmed my thoughts on the level winder/cable breaking issue, completely).


It was a single line pull when the cable broke and when the drive shaft broke. I did not have enough extra rigging of adequate size, to set up a 2 part line pull.

I will be setting myself up with a couple 100' extra lengths of cable in the near future, for the next heavy pull.

 

[Nonotagain]

Eric, do yourself a favor and don't fix the winch as a mechanical version. Get a pump and change it over to hydraulic instead.
I got started in the towing business many years ago. The only mishaps occurred with mechanical winches, not hydraulic ones. The hydraulics will stop working before you get too deep into trouble, while the mechanical will bust parts and you.

 

[Stan]

Nice write-up, where did the cable break and how dramatic was the recoil ? How much cable did you have off ? (I know all of it.)

 

[doghead]

Stan, the winch drum had one layer and was about to start the second layer as the cable built up on one side(before the level winder would change direction. I would say there was about 100-125' of cable out. I think it was the combination of the high tension and the building of about 4 wraps at the end and the shock load when the cable "snapped" down onto the first nicely laid layer of cable, that cause the cable to break.

So, the break occurred right on the drum. The cable went back toward the track hoe, and simply went down to the ground(30-40' below). Remember, my truck was up on a plateau , about 50' back from the edge(In case something went wrong.

Everyone was way back for safety. If someone had been close enough and known what to look for(the end buildup), this may have been avoided. I am glad nobody was that close(even though it caused the cable failure).

The guy in the hoe, thought he was gonna go over back wards. Of course, it felt worse than it really was, to him.