Insane home Water/meth injection...

[Heath_h49008]

I was reading the threads on water/methanol injection systems for multi-fuels as a way to lower EGTs when the smoke screw gets cranked, or just for engine longevity.

I was researching kits, and have noticed the expensive part is the pump...

...we don't need a pump. We have 125psi compressed air.

It would require a sealed pressure tank, an air line in, a liquid line out, and a fill port.

That would seem to make our system only require power/control for the solenoids, plumbing, and injector nozzles. (It seems you could make one with no electronics by using boost pressure to actuate a flow/pressure valve to the injector(s)... but that seems more complicated than it would be worth.)

If you keep the meth % low... just enough to prevent freezing in cold areas... the bump in combustion pressure shouldn't tax the bottom end much either.

The LDTs have the same bottom end as the LDSs, so any minor increase in power should be safe for the engine itself, and the reduction in EGTs should actually do it some good.

Am I missing something?

 

[Blackmagic94]

Most people on gas setups for racing run the "winter washer fluid mix" as it has a small amount of meth added to the water to prevent freezing.

 

[Heath_h49008]

Yeah... but we would need to inject it into the manifold that is already at 15psi... plus whatever pressure is required for atomization... 100-125psi seems to be the standard pressure the injector nozzles I see are flow rated at. I forget how it was done in the old Mustang days, but I seem to remember those on naturally aspirated cars actually used washer pumps. (I built fox chassis mustangs as a kid) The Honda/tuners used them on turbo cars to though, right?

We would need a progressive controller and a little rail of injectors for a complicated, but very tunable, version, or a few adjustable Hobbs switches and an equal number of solenoids/nozzles for a "staged" version. Unless you could source a purpose built controller, pressure sensor, and valves from a manufacturer for a decent price, or really loved electronics and programming, I would avoid the electronic design. We can do it with dumb switches and solenoid valves, so why not?

I know a few have run these systems on the LDTs, and I haven't heard of anybody having ventilated a block with their use,
so I was just thinking of ways to do it cheaper and easier.

The tank has to be rated for 125psi... an old brake tank or propane tank would work.
You need the Hobbes switch(s)... $30 at NAPA iirc
The solenoid valve(s)... <$50 depending on which ones you choose
tools, piping, and nozzles and time...

 

[rogersn67]

For the tank you could use 4 inch pvc with some fittings tapped into a hard cap. It would hold the pressure, and you could make it any size you want.

 

[bigugh20]

I've also been thinking lately that water inj. even if only part time, would help cut down on carbon build up due to waste oil used as a fuel. It should also help keep the injector tips cleaner. I have heard that this (coking?) builds up over time.
Also I would think that due to the feed rate needed to feed all those cubic inches, the tank would need to be rather large.

 

[Blackmagic94]

Its most common on turbocharged cars like my 94 mustang. I need to re read but is meth good on diesels or not, i think water injection is all we need but ill have to check.


Honestly i wouldnt try to reinvent the wheel here, just buy a nice kit and call it a day, the biggest problem with the pumps is they use are usually SureFlo, and they fail from constant meth use, but if you running only water they will live a long time.

 

[Blackmagic94]

Another member mentioned that at 22 psi on his deuce, he can go 20 miles on a 5 gallon tank and that lower boost pressure and lower injection nozzle and pressure would probably go 100 miles.

 

[plym49]

I have read in other threads that water is a no-no for a diesel. I assume that they are referring to water in the fuel, which would be bad for the IP. In this case, we are talking about water hitching a ride with the airf flowing through the intake manifold, and that is OK. Is that right?

 

[m16ty]

Yes, water injection is a common mod to a diesel.

The main thing with water injection is to have a good regulation of flow. Too much water injected and things can go really bad.

 

[plym49]

Yes, water injection is a common mod to a diesel.

The main thing with water injection is to have a good regulation of flow. Too much water injected and things can go really bad.

Would a modest water injection setup, not intended to help you turn up the fuel, provide a means of keeping the exposed components of the combustion chamber free of carbon?

 

[Heath_h49008]

It should.

If we can use old brake tanks for pressurized water/meth, and we are just using off the shelf adjustable Hobbs switches for each stage, we would only need to find a cheap common injector/nozzle or a nozzle and separate solenoid valve that can handle water/meth @ 125 psi and provide good atomization.

2 stages should be enough as I about it... you are either on the highway pulling toward your max for a long period of time... like on a uphill grade, or you are tugging and going all out trying to pull into traffic or leave a stoplight with a load. Stage #1 would be a steady fog to enhance longevity and keep water/meth use to a sane level, and stage #2 would be maximum safe level of mix at full throttle.

It will take some research and a bit of math to find the exact safe flow rate required for each engine at a given boost pressure. But, I believe boost pressure has a direct relationship to fuel burned... so the numbers for such a system would seem to be pretty simple once I get a base formula for diesel.

 

[jwaller]

only use water on the multi fuel. I have tried everything else and it doesn't work.

 

[Heath_h49008]

only use water on the multi fuel. I have tried everything else and it doesn't work.

And how do you keep your water from freezing?

 

[Ride2Kill]

I have been thinking of doing almost this same thing for quite a while. I have sourced spray nozzles through McMaster Carr, and was going to use an old Cornelius keg. (soda keg) Easy to fill, light weight and already have fittings for pressure and liquid draw. The hobs switches are a good idea.

 

[jwaller]

And how do you keep your water from freezing?

I put the smallest amount of alcohol in the tank as possible. just enough so it doesn't freeze. maybe 1/2 of 1%.

 

[Heath_h49008]

I have been thinking of doing almost this same thing for quite a while. I have sourced spray nozzles through McMaster Carr, and was going to use an old Cornelius keg. (soda keg) Easy to fill, light weight and already have fittings for pressure and liquid draw. The hobs switches are a good idea.

Cheap, easy to fill, rated for 130psi, lighter than a steel brake tank, and impossible to open under pressure by accident. PLUS! Easily replaced and serviced for seals and valves.



Have you found any data on how many ml/cc/gal per minute we should be metering for? I'm thinking that starting at 5% Water-meth 95% diesel and stepping it up is a crude method. There must be data out there on an optimal mix percentage.

We have to know that, and how much fuel per minute our engines are using at the "on" point, to determine nozzle size required at 125 psi to give us the right mix/Diesel ratio. As the engine spins above the switch on point, the % H2O will drop, but that's fine. At least we will never have a GREATER than anticipated impact.

Seeing as we are all running the same engine in almost the same truck, we could just put the plans out for the board.

$40 for Cornelius Keg (Less if you just keep one and pay the $15 deposit)
$40 for the Hobbs switch

What are those nozzles running?

$50 for some plumbing/wiring (if you don't have it laying around)

 

[Heath_h49008]

I put the smallest amount of alcohol in the tank as possible. just enough so it doesn't freeze. maybe 1/2 of 1%.

What problems did the meth cause for your multifuel? All the stuff I have read on other (Cummins) forums has been positive.

I don't doubt you, but what were the symptoms?

Was it pre-ignition?

 

[jwaller]

What problems did the meth cause for your multifuel? All the stuff I have read on other (Cummins) forums has been positive.

I don't doubt you, but what were the symptoms?
Was it pre-ignition?

anything I put in there would pre-ignite and I mean badly. I only sprayed for about 3 seconds and I was sure I'd killed the motor. On my race car I spray M10 meth and it loves it.

I think the CR on the multi sets off the extra fuel at different rates from the diesel and it's not happy.

 

[Heath_h49008]

Makes sense... the Multifuel is timed early to help burn the low grade fuels it's designed to still run on. The methanol has a faster flame front propagation rate like propane, and the cylinder pressures would rise too quickly.

I'm surprised more guys on here haven't lifted heads or shaken engines apart with propane/meth.

But the water with minimal propane seems to be doing well? What amount of water are you injecting and at what boost/throttle/EGT are you triggering it?

 

[Ride2Kill]

Cheap, easy to fill, rated for 130psi, lighter than a steel brake tank, and impossible to open under pressure by accident. PLUS! Easily replaced and serviced for seals and valves.



Have you found any data on how many ml/cc/gal per minute we should be metering for? I'm thinking that starting at 5% Water-meth 95% diesel and stepping it up is a crude method. There must be data out there on an optimal mix percentage.

We have to know that, and how much fuel per minute our engines are using at the "on" point, to determine nozzle size required at 125 psi to give us the right mix/Diesel ratio. As the engine spins above the switch on point, the % H2O will drop, but that's fine. At least we will never have a GREATER than anticipated impact.

Seeing as we are all running the same engine in almost the same truck, we could just put the plans out for the board.

$40 for Cornelius Keg (Less if you just keep one and pay the $15 deposit)
$40 for the Hobbs switch

What are those nozzles running?

$50 for some plumbing/wiring (if you don't have it laying around)

I have no idea. I was just going to start at about 2-4 gal per hour and adjust depending on my EGT's. I also thought about using my digital pyrometer to turn on/off the water through a 24volt solenoid.
Digital Boost Gauge with Pressure Sensor [Combo-P] - $88.95 : auberins.com, Temperature control solutions for home and industry
It would only be a single stage system, but it would work for what I want it to do.
The nozzles run like 9 bucks for a stainless one.