5 Tons, trailers and Max GVW

[rmgill]

So as some of you know, I've got a back burner project looking at a 5 ton tractor for hauling 2-3 armoured cars to WWII events. Something I just realized is that I might be going overweight with 3 armoured cars.


Here's my facts

Payload
2 armoured cars, at about 7 tonnes (long) each
1 armoured car at abut 3 tonnes (long)

Total proposed payload about 37,000 lbs. aka ~19 short tons.

5 Ton Semi Tractor
Curb Weight 10 tons

Tractor plus load is 29 tons. The limit is of course 40 tons.

What do the step deck trailers that I'd be able to reasonably afford (ie the aluminum ones are right out) tend to weigh? Are they under or over 10,000 lbs or just there abouts?

I'd prefer to be able to make these movements without an overweight permit and all that entails.

Attached is what I'm looking at for basic ideas of geometry and load configurations.

 

[rmgill]

Oddly enough my google fu seems to be failing me. I cannot seem to find one of the trailer manufacturers websites that would actually list their trailers by model AND list weight capacities and curb weights. odd that.

 

[rmgill]

And one more question on the aspect of permissible load for the M818. The book lists it as 37500. I guess that's my limit. ie 18.75 tons.

I guess then, that 3 armoured cars is too much for a 5 ton to properly haul.

 

[tmbrwolf]

Whatever trailer you may exceed the max allowable towed load for the tractor, IAW the M818 Operator manual "max towed load is 37,500 LBS" With a note "Semitrailer gross tongue weight, including rated fifth wheel load allowance". 40 tons (80,000 LBS) is the max allowable on the highway by DOT without a permit, but you still cannot exceed the tractor's GCWR, Tractor weight W/W 20,165 LBS + Max towed load 37,500 LBS = 57,665 LBS GCWR, less than the max allowed by DOT but a scalemaster may check the weight and pull you for exceeding the GCWR. Plus you'll need a class "A" CDL or equivalent non commercial "A" as long as you aren't getting paid, but I bet you knew that!

 

[M1075]

An 80,000# gross load is out of the question with a 5 ton. I would keep the gross under 40,000# or you will be greatly disappointed on the road. If you want a military tow rig, then it sounds like you need to step up to a M915 series (or M911 if you plan to get anything really heavy). Otherwise, you could buy a commercial truck to haul your toys to the events. Depends on the look you want, the time/money you have and the miles you will travel. Forget about the 5 ton unless your events are local.

 

[rmgill]

I've got the Class A Non-CDL license.

So the 80,000 lbs limit is the weight of trailer + load and not Trailer + Truck + load?

So with a 5 Ton Semi-tractor, 37500 is my max towed limit.

2 vehicles is ~22,000 lbs with ~15,000 for the trailer which is probably easier to find. Personally, I don't like the idea of overloading the semi-tractor given how the armored cars, if they want to go for a ride will go for a ride. They're small but heavy.

[edit]

Never mind, I misread the statement about Max Load. My original understanding is correct. Max highway load un-permitted is 40 tons.

 

[rmgill]

Re: RE: 5 Tons, trailers and Max GVW

An 80,000# gross load is out of the question with a 5 ton. I would keep the gross under 40,000# or you will be greatly disappointed on the road. If you want a military tow rig, then it sounds like you need to step up to a M915 series (or M911 if you plan to get anything really heavy). Otherwise, you could buy a commercial truck to haul your toys to the events. Depends on the look you want, the time/money you have and the miles you will travel. Forget about the 5 ton unless your events are local.

Mostly the events are regional to the Mid-Atlantic region. If we base the 5-ton at one of the unit member's homes in Culpeper, Va, we'd be proximate by about 5 hours to most of the events we attend. There's the odd event in New York but that's not a big push event due to the problems of going to New York with pistols and Machine Guns.

The reason I'm leaning towards the 5 ton is that it'll be abel to go into the woods to recover hardware that dies or gets bogged down AND it'll be common with parts among several 5 tons and my deuce at events and on the side of the road. Being able to have some common parts would be highly preferable. My ideal view is to have 2-3 5 tons among several of us, my deuce and some step deck/older low boy trailers with the ability to go recover vehicles for restoration AND move them to events. I suspect one higher speed truck might be a good idea though so we can take long trips to canada to pick up the new and interesting stuff for restorations (Bren carriers and CMP trucks). Though we might just stick with a standard pickup and heavy small trailer for those sort of runs.

 

[No.2Diesel]

Geez, I too had trouble finding a major manufacturer that still makes an all steel unit (as well as listing an empty weight on their website.) Most now are steel frame aluminum deck.

Ryan try this: http://www.interstatetrailers.com/specs001.html

Look at trailer model 70PHT. Its a bit overkill but its the only friggin site I've found so far that lists a dry weight.

Specs:

70K capacity
18K empty weight
32.5" Deck height
32' overall length
102" width

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

This also may be what your looking for: http://www.rogerstrailers.com/442-000/trailer_details.php

25ton model is 12,980lbs. empty
35ton model is 14,840lbs. empty

Both have 30° tongue approaches. Overall length (all deck) is 44'

--------------------------------------

Hope this info helps

 

[rmgill]

Ok, so a 25 ton trailer will weigh around 10,000-12,000 lbs. Not bad and reasonable. For 2 armoured cars that's well within the range for an M818. We could go with smaller trailers and still carry the two. I am at least figuring on finding a dodgy trailer for less than $10,000, reworking the brakes, air lines, and electrics to take the 12 and 24 volt electrics and repairing minor damage as well as fixing wheel bearings and the like.

I can't figure why most of the manufacturers can't be bothered to list their trailer weights or even to have a website at all. I couldn't find a site for Phelan, Wallace and Loadcraft.

Thanks for tracking down the Interstate site

Here's three that I found that seem to fit the bill at least notionally.

http://www.truckpaper.com/listings/detail.aspx?OHID=1722778&guid=24FC7E0BF29241AB903EFC4058157348

http://www.truckpaper.com/listings/detail.aspx?OHID=1761428&guid=24FC7E0BF29241AB903EFC4058157348

http://www.truckpaper.com/listings/detail.aspx?OHID=1753207&guid=24FC7E0BF29241AB903EFC4058157348

 

[M1075]

Re: RE: 5 Tons, trailers and Max GVW

The reason I'm leaning towards the 5 ton is that it'll be abel to go into the woods to recover hardware that dies or gets bogged down AND it'll be common with parts among several 5 tons and my deuce at events and on the side of the road. Being able to have some common parts would be highly preferable. My ideal view is to have 2-3 5 tons among several of us, my deuce and some step deck/older low boy trailers with the ability to go recover vehicles for restoration AND move them to events. I suspect one higher speed truck might be a good idea though so we can take long trips to canada to pick up the new and interesting stuff for restorations (Bren carriers and CMP trucks). Though we might just stick with a standard pickup and heavy small trailer for those sort of runs.

At the end of the day, you will just have to determine what matters the most and you will have to make some compromises. Ever heard the saying, "You can't have cheap, good, and fast?"

Parts commonality is a good idea, but keep in mind if you breakdown on the side of the road you will likely need something commercially available. I would again suggest you look at the commercially based trucks in the M915 series.

The M920 is an 8x6, and with its drag winch, is adequately prepared to recover just about any piece of armor you or your buddies might get. It is also one of the few MVs that can actually maintain pace on today's interstate system. Hook that up to a M870 40 ton lowboy and I promise you will never be disappointed. I think the gross weight capacity is 120-130K. And, you will have the coolest rig around when loaded with your armour!

 

[rmgill]

RE: Re: RE: 5 Tons, trailers and Max GVW

I would say one of the line haul tractors from that class of trucks WOULD be nice. More civilian styled and 'slightly' less austere.

Insofar as Good/Fast/Cheap. (you only get two of the three)

I figure the 5 Tons fit that bill. They're Good and Cheap...but ain't fast.

 

[M1075]

RE: Re: RE: 5 Tons, trailers and Max GVW

Well it sounds like you are set on a 5 ton. I hope it works for you, but I don't personally think it is the right fit for your intended application. For a test run, maybe you can find 3 guys with dueces and towbar all 3 deuces behind a 5 ton. That is the weight you are talking about pulling and it might give you an idea of how it will work. Best of luck with your project! Post up some pics when you can.

 

[rmgill]

RE: Re: RE: 5 Tons, trailers and Max GVW

I'm not veering away from the 915 Line hauls, I have downsized what I figure on towing with the 5 tons though. It all depends on whats available when we finally get to the point that we need to move the heavier armoured cars to events.

 

[area52]

Re: RE: 5 Tons, trailers and Max GVW

The reason I'm leaning towards the 5 ton is that it'll be abel to go into the woods to recover hardware that dies or gets bogged down AND it'll be common with parts among several 5 tons and my deuce at events and on the side of the road. Being able to have some common parts would be highly preferable. My ideal view is to have 2-3 5 tons among several of us, my deuce and some step deck/older low boy trailers with the ability to go recover vehicles for restoration AND move them to events. I suspect one higher speed truck might be a good idea though so we can take long trips to canada to pick up the new and interesting stuff for restorations (Bren carriers and CMP trucks). Though we might just stick with a standard pickup and heavy small trailer for those sort of runs.

At the end of the day, you will just have to determine what matters the most and you will have to make some compromises. Ever heard the saying, "You can't have cheap, good, and fast?"

Parts commonality is a good idea, but keep in mind if you breakdown on the side of the road you will likely need something commercially available. I would again suggest you look at the commercially based trucks in the M915 series.

The M920 is an 8x6, and with its drag winch, is adequately prepared to recover just about any piece of armor you or your buddies might get. It is also one of the few MVs that can actually maintain pace on today's interstate system. Hook that up to a M870 40 ton lowboy and I promise you will never be disappointed. I think the gross weight capacity is 120-130K. And, you will have the coolest rig around when loaded with your armour!

I just saw one of those here in the sticks of New Mexico. It had an extended cab on it but still looked like it was military, very nice looking.

 

[madsam]

I did a little flat bed work. I never had a low boy, but the old trailers I ran with were about 7000lbs for a 40foot. The military had a version of the freighliner fld 120 that was 6x6. (M920??) I dove many fld120s. That was a nice hard working truck that was comfortable to drive for hours. And it was quiet-ish. At least compared to my 816 it was more comfortable and quiet. It depends on how far you are going and who you expect to be in the cab with you. My wife would prefer a larger quieter cab.

 

[jason@snakeriver]

If you are looking for an all steel trailer, your GVW goes all to h---. I run an M-819 with a M-270 trailer. I licenced it for 50,000 and went down and got a light weight WHAM-O 47,000 lb.s Not much margin for pay-load. Here is a link to the picture.
http://www.dodgepowerwagon.com/wwwboard/messages/2750493.html Tom @ Snake River

 

[M1075]

If you are looking for an all steel trailer, your GVW goes all to h---. I run an M-819 with a M-270 trailer. I licenced it for 50,000 and went down and got a light weight WHAM-O 47,000 lb.s Not much margin for pay-load. Here is a link to the picture.
http://www.dodgepowerwagon.com/wwwboard/messages/2750493.html Tom @ Snake River

Great pic Tom! I posted here for everyone to see. How much weight is shown in the picture? According to the manuals the empty weight of the M819/M270A1 combo is 52,565#. You must be lighter due to the singles and maybe less BII? Can you share any experiences or insight into how the 5 ton drives with the 47,000# empty weight and how the loaded weight on the highway?

 

[No.2Diesel]

Finally!!

We do require more pics of that however

 

[jason@snakeriver]

My light weight with fuel was 47,300, according to the book the 3 vehicles should weigh in around 14,600 for a total weight of about 62,000.
As for driving, the truck was running very well, and I was well pleased with the power. Unloaded you can cruise at about 55 mph and loaded maybe the 50 to 55 range. This is on flat ground. Going up hills I am sure that the 250 Cummins is going to show its weakness compared to the 450 hp semi's blowing around you.
As for stability that those speeds, I was also pleased. The wrecker would bounce a little on the bumps, but you would never feel the trailer. Side to side and wondering was nil, but that would depend on each truck.

 

[jason@snakeriver]

The picture of loading the mule - sorry to be eletronically challanged
http://www.dodgepowerwagon.com/wwwboard/messages/2750492.html