another M1009 no start

[2deuce]

I have this M1009 as a backup and everything was fine last month. New MC, new batteries, and everything was perfect when parked. I needed it today for the 1st time and no crank, just a loud clunk like a starter trying to turn over a frozen/seized engine, except the engine is not seized. I haven't had this situation before, but I figure it must be the starter solenoid or the starter itself. If I try another time immediately after the first try, I only get a click sound and not much of a draw on the amp gage, but If I let it sit a few minutes or longer, I'll get the loud clunk again with a heavy but short lived amp draw on the gage. I'm guessing a short in the starter, what do you guys think?

 

[tim292stro]

How healthy are your batteries? I've seen new batteries fail the same year installed.

What is the voltage during rest (key off), and while cranking (key to start)?

 

[2deuce]

I should check that, but the batteries are brand new, bought last month with sept '15 build dates. I also put chargers on both batteries and I put a 50 amp charger on the rear so I think battery charge is good but I should check that. The truck has no mods, that I can see and it operated fine when I tested it with a short drive after the brake repair. That was the only drive I have on it, so it's history is short with us. My son and I daily drive M1009's so this one is just a spare, a just in case option that has failed it's 1st trial.

Thanks

 

[tim292stro]

When it gets cold problems show their heads... start with first principals. You need enough voltage and amperage to do any work - if the batteries are showing any less than 19v and not spinning the motor then I'd worry about the batteries.

A few follow-up questions:
* Do you have the doghead mod?
* You say you have "batteries" and you have not modified the truck, I can assume, but can you confirm that you have a 24v starter?
* Do you know if you have the factory 27MT direct-drive starter or the 28MT gear-reduction starter?

Here's where my head is at based on what you've published so far:

You hear a click, but no crank (starter motor is not spinning the engine). Without knowing if the click is coming from a doghead relay under your dash or if it's the starter's soleniod moving the drive gear onto the flywheel we can't assume either the starter or the batteries. I'm out on a limb for now assuming that there are no issues with the control wiring and circuits since you hear something mechnical go click when you turn the key.

If the batteries don't have enough power to turn a starter motor once engaged, that's you first area to rule out. Then, you can pull the starter and take it to get it tested - if it fails you can rebuild or replace (I personally prefer the 28MT). If it passes you can simply reinstall - the test is usually free at parts places.

Those two are the biggest areas of failure.

 

[rsh4364]

Also double check all your Batt. connections and cables.I also might think about a solargizer install,I put one on my 86 1009 recently and it seems to help.But mine rarely sets for more than a few days at a time.Not saying a solargizer would solve your problem,but I have read they really help when vehicle sits for long periods..

 

[TGP (IL)]

Put a 15/16 socket on the front crank pulley bolt and turn the engine, you will hear a click.
That is the bendix coming out of the flywheel.
Then try to re-start.
This is providing your sure your Batteries are up.

Not sure why this happens but it does occasionally to my M1028A2.
Everything is in great condition and up to spec.
I suspect the starter solenoid is the culprit intermittently making a weak connection
From time to time.

However I did find and open segment on the starter armature one time causing this,
And was replaced.
Problem went away but later comes back once in a while.
Has had the dog head mod.

Tom

 

[cucvrus]

My spin if I may. It is the starter. I always change the starter and both alternators when I put a CUC/V in my fleet. New batteries also among the other service and changing all fluids and the filters. I am putting my 2 cents on the starter. I have Zero (0) of the Dog head relays on anything I own and contribute that to always having healthy batteries and starters. Once I get a CUCV/V and after I go over it I just keep on top of everything I see and suspect wrong and either change the part or repair the problem. I would take the starter don and check it. Do you have access to a load tester or a voltmeter? Good Luck let us know what you come up with. I have a starter to change this AM on a CUC/V. Bright and early. It just sounds funny. Tis the season of change before it is out and the snow is blowing. If it sounds wrong find and fix the problem. I don't rebuild starters I jut change them and take them to a starter / alternator shop for rebuilding. I have several different starters in my Mule for the shop today. the dresser dozer starter was a piece of cake to change. After the 100 lb belly pan was removed from the under side. Have a great day. Good Luck I was closer I would stop by. I am still traveling on free fuel and have gone many places in the past month.

 

[fitz]

I'm with Cucvrus, I think its time to get your starter rebuilt.
I just had a 27MT starter rebuilt at a local starter/alternator shop for $160.

 

[Rustyshackelford]

I had same symptoms last week. One of my "new" batteries was dead. Take them out and have them tested on the fancy charger/tester machine at the parts store.

 

[2deuce]

I didn't have a chance today to check anything, but now I'm questioning my new batteries. I don't have a load tester but I will put a voltmeter on them. I hope tomorrow is a better day. On another sour note the starter in my daily driver gave indications it needs replacing. It gave the pause and then turn scenario followed by nothing when I was leaving work. It started on the second attempt. It's odd that both vehicles, have starter problems at the same time. We are having freezing nights here so the weaknesses are more likely to show as mentioned above. Neither truck has the doghead relay or the resistor bypass or any other known mod and when I turn the key I can hear the glow plug relay and I can hear the starter engage, that is the loud clunk. When I replaced the master cylinder the first one was bad even though it also was brand new, so I shouldn't assume the batteries are fine either, like I have. I need to check them. Yesterday I did put a socket on the crank bolt to see that the engine was not stuck and it does turn, thankfully.

Thanks

 

[tim292stro]

If they don't have the Doghead relay mod, you should do that - especially if you retain the 27MT direct-drive starter. The original starter control circuits does not have the current carrying capacity to reliably break the circuit when you stop cranking. Nothing like having your starter run until it burns the fusible link or kills your batteries...

If you don't hear the starter motor spinning at all it could still be your starter - or your batteries. Yes do a load test of the batteries to see if they can even handle the starter load - a $22 Harbor Freight carbon pile battery tester will do the trick, if you work on your own vehicles no matter the year, this is a good tool to have in the box. Batteries can fail with a fractured bus bar on the inside - it leaves enough of the connection to run light loads like dome lights or idiot lights, but when you put a heavy load on the batteries they can act like they're open-circuit. For Optima spiral-cell AGMs I've had a few fail after just three months with a complete open circuit - dome light worked when I got out of the truck, and didn't work when I came back, totally dead, in the middle of no-where... I don't buy Optimas any more for that reason.

 

[Assel]

if your batteries are proven to be good, make sure every contanct is clean & good. I had a bad "-" contact in the bus bar on the fire wall, cleaning and reinstalling the cable was a 1 minute job. It corroded during the winter when I didn´t use the CUCV. (also a batterie died though I put them regulary in my dayliedriver to load, my gp card fried due to the attempt starting with a bad batterie...while I was busy anyways I changed the GP relay and did a doghead mod.)

I think I´l have to replace my starter aswell... 1 out of 1000 starts fails, the starter doesn´t catch the engine and spins free... the 2nd attempt is always fine. Maybe it lacks a few teeth on the flywheel? I shall see when I pull the starter...

good luck with your ´09

 

[tim292stro]

...1 out of 1000 starts fails, the starter doesnt catch the engine and spins free... the 2nd attempt is always fine. Maybe it lacks a few teeth on the flywheel?...

Sounds like exactly that.

 

[2deuce]

An update on my M1009 starting problem. I removed the batteries and took them to my local Napa. They used the hand held tester and said they both tested fine. I took them both batteries fully charged. They have a tool that tests draw down, but doesn't do a draw down. After the test which showed one battery was slightly better than the other but both ok, they offered to do an actual draw down test on their big machine, but it would require 24 hrs to ensure both batteries were fully charged and perform the test. I opted for this test. Napa was surprised but one of the batteries failed the involved draw down test. I now installed 2 new group 31 commercial batteries thinking that my problem was now found. Not the case or not the only problem because the clunking starter still only clunks. So now it looks like the starter, or solenoid or both are also bad. I took the starter out last night and will have it tested as soon as possible.

Are there rebuild kits available for the 27mt starter? I couldn't find anything in my initial search. I did find a lot of people hating the 27mt and reviews of the gear reduction mt28 replacement also are less than good. I'm uncertain what to do if the starter comes back unserviceable as I expect it will.

Thanks

 

[tim292stro]

Parts for the 27MT are getting a bit harder to find as it seems Delco has replaced the 27MT with the 28MT in all applications, none of my sources had any parts for them (brushes, etc...). That was key to my decision to move to 28MT. In addition to checking out your starter, I didn't see a reply about the Doghead mod. Is that done in your truck? The OEM starter circuit does not have enough current carrying capability to reliably control the 24V starter. Contacts wear out and have a risk of welding "on", which will leave your starter motor running until it burns out or the wiring catches fire (unless you can pull the +24V power cable before that happens).

 

[2deuce]

I did the mod to one truck I own, that I used to drive a lot, but I have owned many more that I have not done that to in the last 10 years or more without incident. I'm not as sold as others here that it is critically needed. It seems that many CUCV owners think that the relay is a failure waiting to happen, but I think it is due more to parts wearing out than a design flaw. Not a bad idea to do, just not critical. I'm expecting my starter to have an internal short, possibly on the long bolts inside that hold it together, because that has happened before to me. I also think that the better condition you keep your batteries, the healthier your electrical system will be. Lower volts mean higher amps, which can fail parts. Thanks for the info on the 27mt. I guess I'll buy the 28mt I see on ebay if and when this starter fails its test.

 

[cucvrus]

I agree with everything you said. And I never did the relay mods on any of my CUCV's in over 20 years of owning these trucks. The key is good batteries and not cranking them when they are low in voltage low. I would opt to have the starter rebuilt at a reputable re-builder in your area. Ebay is a bad place to buy a starter if you have issues with it. Buy local and face to face is the best way to get a good deal and if issues arrive you know where it came from. Do as you wish. Happy new Year and Good Luck.

 

[2deuce]

updating what I found....For one I was wrong about the doghead relay. When you say you never had a problem with it you better knock on some wood, I didn't. The starter checked out bad at a supposably reputable rebuilder. They said it needed a total rebuild. I was suspect of this info. One new battery checked out bad, but still was not the cause of the problem. I cleaned the old starter and installed it with no change, the starter would not crank only clunk. I pulled the starter again and hooked battery cables to it and it ran. So now I checked the voltage on the wire coming from the relay under the dash to the starter solenoid and that was my problem, very low voltage only a couple of volts. So I did the doghead relay mod and installed the starter again. Thankfully that cured the starter from only clunking to cranking, but the engine turns over unevenly, either a lack of compression or a thump. I think it is a thumping sound, it does it with each crank of the engine. My hearing is not the greatest, but I can't hear that when the engine starts. The starter had no shims on it and it is stenciled on the starter "no shims". Any ideas here on this thumping noise?
When the engine does start it runs very rough like there is air in the fuel lines. I think that is it, because it clears up after about 5 minutes of idling. I removed the filter base and plugged the hole for the pressure sensor with a screw and some jb weld. The start the following day was much improved, but I haven't driven the truck, so I'm hoping the slight and shorter rough idle condition is only some leftover air.
Now I have a glow plug problem and I'll start another thread on that. This truck had no brakes when I got it either, the problems have been one after another. It has been no wonder the 2002 date coded tires are still brand new on this thing. The best thing about it when I got it is there is no rust, the underside looks new, even the wheel wells. Thanks to all of you for your help and advice!

 

[Hasdrubal]

Parts for the 27MT are getting a bit harder to find, none of my sources had any parts for them (brushes, etc...). That was key to my decision to move to 28MT.

Really? Many of us order from here,I believe there is also a member selling kits ; http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?136886-Alternator-and-starter-parts-amp-repair-kits

 

[cucvrus]

I get my starters rebuilt at a local starter/alternator shop and they never said anything about parts issues. The last 27MT cost me about $120. to have a complete rebuild. It looks and operates just as good as a new one. Most new ones are China made now. Which I don't mind if they last. I had some 28 MT AC Delco's that were made in Japan.