Fraken-deuce as a tow rig, any reason not to?

[Whitbread]

Hello everyone, I'm a new guy on this block but have been a certified gearhead for a long time . I've trolled around for a little bit and can only say I'm impressed with the level of character on this forum. Anyway, onto the reason for this post.


I own a custom metal fabrication and diesel performance/repair business. I'm in the middle of moving to a new shop to handle increased business and I need a tow rig for hauling vehicles and other big stuff. However, like most of the people on here, ordinary is simply not acceptable!

While a late model 1 ton diesel dually would suffice my needs, I simply cannot stomach the 12-15K for a half decent truck while I can get a class 7 or 8 semi of the same year for 5-10K in decent running order. The big problem is that I really do not want to give up 4WD. I've pulled too many semi's out that were stuck in 2" of snow. I've found a couple early 90's medium duty International 4900's with dt466's and 4wd, but the asking price is always ungodly.

So after tons of searching and number crunching, it looks like a Fraken-truck is the most cost effective option. Cruising gov't auction sites, I see M35's that aren't running sell for less than $1000. Seeing that, I'm seriously planning to purchase one unless anyone here gives me a good reason not to.

While I'm looking for one, what specifics should I look for? The front winch would of course be on the list. I've seen mention of the air operated T-case being the preferred one and something about and air actuated front axle. Beyond that, I'm not very familiar with the "standard" features. Engine is immaterial as you'll read in a moment.

Here's the plan:
-Engine swap with a IH DT466, Cummins L10 or M11, etc. I need more power than the multifuel's ever hoped to make. Engine wouldn't stay stock either
-Exhaust that won't make you deaf
-Roadranger RTO 10 or 13 speed trans to mate up with the engine
-Mod T case for selectable 4wd or swap it for one that is. (Anyone tried this before, or is it not possible?)
-Pickup selectable front hubs I've seen from a supplier on here
-12v conversion
-Air suspension seats
-4 link and airbags at all axles
-Hydraulic assist steering
-Taller, more modern tires to cruise at highway speeds
-Mount craigslist pop up camper sideways behind cab as the "sleeper"
-Gooseneck ball over rearmost axle
-Non camo paint (sorry guys!)
-Lots of dynamat


By my rough math (not counting the labor of love), says I should be able to do all this for about 6-8K using junkyards and other cost saving resources to their full potential. While I realize that's quite the crazy list, since it's what I do for a living, I'm not afraid of it.


Now comes the durability question, I'm very familiar with the 2.5 ton axles when used in extreme off road buggy applications, but not otherwise. Should I be concerned about towing a 15-20K pound load with them? It would be once or twice a month no further than 200 mile round trip; mainly pulling the 2 sled trucks I sponsor on a 35' trailer to events. All other loads would be below 10K.



Thank you very much for the insight everyone!

 

[area52]

Welcome to SS.

One question I have - what about brakes? Are you gonna upgrade the old outdated single circuit ones? That will probably set you back a little bit. If you are gonna tow that much, better upgrade the brakes also.

I also add at least %10 to any of my budget numbers, things always add up.

good luck

 

[brianrbull]

I would recommend looking at a 5 ton chassis, The $1000 deuce is becomming a rare bird. A M818 would probably be a good candidate. The last 2 I have bought went for less than 2k, There are a few advantages with the 5 ton over the deuce. IE more room under the hood, Stronger drivetrain, already has power steering, already has a "Road Tractor" sized engine in it so less work to drop a larger more powerful one in (IE N-14)

 

[mudguppy]

...
Here's the plan:
-Engine swap with a IH DT466, Cummins L10 or M11, etc. I need more power than the multifuel's ever hoped to make. Engine wouldn't stay stock either
-Exhaust that won't make you deaf
-Roadranger RTO 10 or 13 speed trans to mate up with the engine
-Mod T case for selectable 4wd or swap it for one that is. (Anyone tried this before, or is it not possible?)
-Pickup selectable front hubs I've seen from a supplier on here
-12v conversion
-Air suspension seats
-4 link and airbags at all axles
-Hydraulic assist steering
-Taller, more modern tires to cruise at highway speeds
-Mount craigslist pop up camper sideways behind cab as the "sleeper"
-Gooseneck ball over rearmost axle
-Non camo paint (sorry guys!)
-Lots of dynamat ...

in order:
- i don't blame you for wanting to swap. i did. but a '466 is going to require a shoe-horn and anything bigger is likely completely out of the question.
- do-able
- won't fit without extensive mods; length is the major issue - you'll have to relocate the transfer rearward quite a bit and completely remove/relocate a crossmember. width will also come into play for the front drive shaft.
- i don't understand what mods you want to make to the transfer. the transfer is 'selectable'; L & H are synco-shifted via handle and the front axle is engaged/disengaged via air switch.
- ok on the hubs.
- not much of a reason for 12V conversion. do lots of reading, there are several options (go 24V on the motor, dual alternators, battery equalizer, DC-DC converter, etc).
- air seats would be cool, but you need to realize how small and low the cab actually is.
- the suspension mods sound great, but i think they will be very difficult to design without negatively affecting handling at highway speeds, let alone towing heavy.
- good call on the steering; lots of threads discuss options
- tires, yep.
- sleeper, interesting.
- where you mount the GN will depend on your suspension setup (you already know this).
- paint, check.
- you do realize that enough dynamat to do the cab floor, firewall, doors, and rear wall will well exceed $1k of your budget, right?

... So after tons of searching and number crunching, it looks like a Fraken-truck is the most cost effective option. ... By my rough math, says I should be able to do all this for about 6-8K using junkyards and other cost saving resources to their full potential. ...

i've done similar work as you are planning (engine/trans swap). looking at your list, that's not going to happen within your budget. unless you alread possess a '466/RTO, you'll be lucky to do just the engine/trans work and associated mods for under $6k.

... Now comes the durability question, ... Should I be concerned about towing a 15-20K pound load with them? It would be once or twice a month no further than 200 mile round trip; ...

i don't think durability is the issue. rather, i believe after your first 200 mile trip towing heavy (for a deuce chassis) at 55mph, you won't want to make another. [and i'd say 55 is max capable speed given consideration to the RTO OD and new engine which will have a lower governed high idle rpm.]

... While a late model 1 ton diesel dually would suffice my needs, I simply cannot stomach the 12-15K for a half decent truck ... The big problem is that I really do not want to give up 4WD. ...

then don't. get a mid '90s Dodge/Cummins. if you find one for 12-15k, then keep looking. you should be able to find a Dodge or Ford for 8-9k, easy. this truck will do what you're asking a whole lot better.

other issues (i see) that you have not addressed:
- brakes; the OE brakes will not be sufficient for what you want to do. hydro-max or hydro-boost with disc brakes is the only answer i would see for a truck such as this. i see this costing $3.5k-$4k if you purchase brake kits (for 3 axles) or no less than $2k-$2.5k if you assemble components and do the work yourself.
- height; this truck would be way too tall for stable towing of that weight. besides, you'll have to have a custom GN trailer to account for this height; is that in the budget?
- suspension; especially for towing, you'll need to utilize some hella-big sway bars to add any sort of stability, especially with a camper on top. no big deal, except you'll no longer have any advantage of the 4-link work done. otherwise you'll be disconnecting sway bar links everytime you leave the pavement. just something to consider.
- comfort; to be putting miles in this truck, you're going to want either heat or A/C. even though there may be a heater, it's worthless unless it's the flame heater. and with all that dynamat, you'll lose your radiant heat through the firewall.
- geometry; 'steer assist' is going to be very difficult to maintain proper geometry with a 4-link, unless it's a parrallel setup with a lateral link. not much room under the front end to make it 'correct' for a road truck. otherwise, full hydro is an option, but most people don't feel comfortable with this.

my recommendation: don't try this with a deuce. you're trying to build an ultimate truck that can do everything well; that doesn't exist. if it did, we'd all be driving the same thing.

rather, get a good used 1-ton, or at the very least, start with a 5-ton as a platform. you will be time and money ahead, and also have a higher chance for success.

as always, this is just my free opinion, and it's value may be treated as such.


just take lots of pictures.

 

[wreckerman893]

A tactical vehicle (2 1/2 ton or 5 ton) is not going to be your best choice.....I would look for a civy wrecker coming off of GL....there have been several in the last few months and they would prob suit your needs better than trying to mod a truck to do something it was never intended to do.

You can do a search on GL using their search feature.

Your milage may vary.

 

[gijoe]

I bought a kodiak civy wrecker from the gov out of florida with the cat and allison and it works great and drives great also.

 

[Recovry4x4]

I'll add this. What do you consider highway speed? The axles in a deuce or 5 ton for that matter, are double reduction. They are just not designed for high speeds. My deuces spit out gear oil if I run them too fast for 2 long. I support you on your quest to build this and won't try to dissuade you but even if you do build this ultimate truck, my estimation will be that you come in with exceeding your projected budget 2 fold unless you have all this stuff already on the shelf.

 

[rchalmers3]

Whitbread,

Whatever you conjure up, keep us posted in the appropriate forum so we can see your expertise and monitor your progress.

I appreciate the opportunity to view projects done by those of you with more talent, tools and funds than I. Especially in the area of medium and large trucks, where I am a rookie.

Cheers,

Rick

 

[M1075]

Why not just get a "real" truck like a M916 or M920? They can be found for the same price of a deuce.

 

[Recovry4x4]

Why not just get a "real" truck like a M916 or M920? They can be found for the same price of a deuce.

Why didn't I think of that. Best reply yet James.

 

[Whitbread]

Wow, thank you everyone for the fast replies.

Area 52 - yes, brakes were in the plan. I missed adding it to the list when i typed that at 2:30 in the morning haha. I was still researching as what to do there.

Brianrbull - Thanks for the suggestion, I'll look more into them. I'm a welder/machinist/mechanic, not a military truck expert. This is why I ask questions!

Mudpuppy - Dang, I didn't realize the engine bay was that small in these. I've driven by a few of them (anyone here live on route 4 outside of marysville, ohio?) and from all the pics on the net, it looked like a dt466 would fit reasonably. One of my best customers owns a heavy equipment junk yard so sourcing a motor and trans for $1000-1500 is doable. Gotta love friends

-The trans stuff doesn't scare/bother me. It can't be any worse than putting a RTO 10 speed into a 4wd 98 1 tong dodge with a divorced np203/205 combo.

-As for the dynamat (or similar products), I've accumulated enough extra from jobs to do a truck for free. Using extra/spare/scrap parts would the theme of this build (and get junk off my shelves and out of my shop haha). That's how I plan to keep the budget reasonably in check.

-If the 5 ton would be a much better starting platform, maybe I'll look for one of them. Does anyone near NW Ohio have either truck that they would let me crawl around on and take some measurements from?

-While I could find a rust free mid 90's dodge form down south or out west with a 5.9 for 6K or so, it would probably need some work and everyone has one. Since this would be my shop truck, the more unusual, the better! Anyone in business knows that visual appearance is 90% of initial customer impression. Since this would be a rolling advertisement, it would also be a tax write off. My shop is known for high quality, unusual fabrication and machining work so I figure the shop truck should match that.

-Modding a trailer for hitch height wouldn't be a problem. Just some scrap metal and time with the plasma and welder.

I'd appreciate the rest of your input and would discuss your input further if I had more time at the exact moment (in the middle of moving shops). I'd really love to see you truck if you were closer!

\Recovery4x4 - I was looking for 60-65mph. Don't need much faster than that. Is that really unreasonable with taller tires and an OD gear?

M1075 - I would, however I really like something with a flat bed on it vs day cab tractor only.



Again, I cannot thank everyone for their input to my newbie questions. After everyone's input, I'll look more at a 5 ton as a starting platform. I realize I'm planning to build something quite ridiculous, but when you can't buy what you want, you build it!

 

[Josh]

I use my deuce as a tow rig. The average trailer load behind it is about 8k when fully loaded with gear and what not. I've towed 17,000lbs on a tri axle equipment trailer. It was slow but the deuce handled it well. Just make sure the trailer brakes are in good working order. If using a deuce/5ton, I would highly recomend getting a trailer with air brakes.

That is the only picture that I have of it hooked to a trailer. But the trailer, cruise + gear maxed at around 8k. Pulled 55 most the trip on the freeway with the exception of some larger hills. Since turning the fuel up some, those same hills I had trouble pulling at 30, I'm now pulling at 50 with pedal to spare.

My worth.

 

[porkysplace]

The front winch set-uo will cost you $1000 to $1500 alone ,the truck will be extra

 

[M1075]

Here is a M920 with deuce cargo bed added.

 

[M1075]

Or how about a M920 with shelter/sleeper?

400 hp turbo diesel, 16 speeds, air brakes, selectable transfer, 12v power, adjustable seat, power steering, taller tires, highway speeds no problem, sleeper fits easily, etc.

You will be so much farther ahead to start with a M920 to accomplish your goals, than bastardizing a deuce.

 

[Recovry4x4]

60-65 is reasonable for a highway speed in reference to the axles!

 

[ranchand]

Excited to hear about what you endup doing. Keep us posted and take lots of pics.

 

[emr]

just sayin, good luck with all that to a deuce or a five ton, just get a street truck and be done with it... all in good fun, and good luck...

 

[Bob H]

Here is a M920 with deuce cargo bed added.

This is the answer.