Legal and Safe?

[namedpipes]

How illegal and how unsafe is it to install something like a MEP003A or 004A in a detached garage/barn/shed, fireproof vent the exaust, power vent the building, stick a 250gal tank in the corner and a manual transfer switch to power the nearby house in a power failure (and the garage as needed for work shop power)?

The neighborhood in question has the peculiar property of instilling life into inanimate objects such that they grow legs in the night and wander away, so I'd really like the generator inside and not worry about dragging it into the yard when needed.

Also, "may" I use oil from a home heating oil supplier to run a generator or will the dye in the oil give me a guilty conscience?

 

[ODdave]

I love the first sentance !

----"How illegal and how unsafe is it to ..."---


P.S. unless you drive your genny down the road that pink is LEGAL

 

[Boatcarpenter]

Your best route is to go get a copy of your town ordinances/building codes or have a chit-chat with your code enforcement officer. It will vary from town to town probably and state to state. Having lived in Mass once upon a time and still knowing lots of people in Mass and hearing horror stories of code enforcement situations, I'm guessing it's probably a nightmare.
BC

 

[namedpipes]

Yeah, I know there are a hundred and one ways to do this wrong and many/most of the code regulations represent someone's hard learned lessons.

So of course my main interest is not killing myself or anyone else, followed closely by not damaging my or other property. Beyond that I'm pretty flexible, but I'm glad to know I can use the heating oil for this!

If anyone can point me to a resource on using a genset like these in this type of application, much appreciated!

 

[namedpipes]

Yes, Mass has some "interesting" rules. Some make sense and some just mystify me.

I have found (at least in my town) the code folks will throw up obstacles to anything outside of the norm. If I already have the answers they give less argument... And if my master plan is way off base, I haven't spotlighted myself for special attention and can devise a solution that is still safe and more or less legal but doesn't require their signoff (like getting a genset on trailer and garaging it until needed instead of a permanent install)

 

[KsM715]

Unless you put a tag on it and drive it down a public road I dont think you have to worry about running dyed fuel.

 

[overlordofmars]

You have to follow the National Electrical Code, Or National Fire Prevention Code. The generator has to be hooked to your house with an approved automatic disconnect system. You should also check if your in a city has a noise ordnance as most military generators are very noisy and do not meet most codes for noise reduction. Tactical devices rarely do.

Now in the OLD days we would just hook it up and have a dual throw breaker, up was mains power, center was disconnected, down was generator. Most of these were 100 amp rated.

I have at my house a old non approved setup that is right out of the 1950s. It works, but you have to manually switch the power. Today we are dumb, so the codes are written to protect us idiots. As you can guess they are also written so your nosy neighbor will not be annoyed.

Be careful as you do not want mains power to connect while your generator is running. They will not be in phase and the resulting condition can blow your breaker box and generator into orbit. Plus upset the power company !

As you can guess I am a class 5 electrician. I have worked on generator setups all the way up to 10800 Kw that was a sixteen cylinder diesel setup used by a local factory.

 

[namedpipes]

If I connect to the house wiring at all it will be through a real transfer switch that properly isolates the "grid" from the house. I had the impression the 10/15 kw diesel gensets were quieter than the high revving gas gensets?

If for some reason I can't or shouldn't do that I'm stuck with extension cords to the important things. Which is still better than sitting in the dark...

 

[Isaac-1]

For some general references download a copy of Kohler TP-5700 and TP-5400 they are available as pdf's from various sources online, google should be able to help you find them.

Ike

 

[overlordofmars]

The problem I ran into with a strip mall was the generator was too loud for their 50db noise limit. I had to install fiber insulation inside the case and a new muffler. The generator was also diesel too. these inspectors and their codes will drive you nuts. I had to have two fire extinguishers present as well.

 

[PeterD]

You have to follow the National Electrical Code, Or National Fire Prevention Code. The generator has to be hooked to your house with an approved automatic disconnect system.

An automatic changeover (transfer) is not required, and a manual switch can be used. If an automatic changeover is used, the generator must be sized to handle the full load, and I suspect your generator is not that large. This requirement has been described in depth on the Internet, a search will turn up references, but NEC does cover this in the code.

You should also check if your in a city has a noise ordnance as most military generators are very noisy and do not meet most codes for noise reduction. Tactical devices rarely do.

I doubt the building code would cover this, but noise ordinances would. But being 'inside' would clearly make it quieter, and as well, personally I don't think this is an issue--those stupid HD and WalMart generators make a horrible amount of noise too... For residential, occasional usage, I doubt anyone will kick too much.

Now in the OLD days we would just hook it up and have a dual throw breaker, up was mains power, center was disconnected, down was generator. Most of these were 100 amp rated.

I do know that Harbor Freight has a 200 Amp manual transfer switch, not cheap (several hundred) but seems well made considering the country of origin!

I have at my house a old non approved setup that is right out of the 1950s. It works, but you have to manually switch the power. Today we are dumb, so the codes are written to protect us idiots. As you can guess they are also written so your nosy neighbor will not be annoyed.

Be careful as you do not want mains power to connect while your generator is running. They will not be in phase and the resulting condition can blow your breaker box and generator into orbit. Plus upset the power company !

As you can guess I am a class 5 electrician. I have worked on generator setups all the way up to 10800 Kw that was a sixteen cylinder diesel setup used by a local factory.

I would never want a running generator in an inhabited building (including an attached garage) under any circumstances. The hazards of CO and fire are sufficiently high that you just don't want that. (Probably would never meet code either.)

I would consider a small out building (storage shed type) as long as it was far enough away that any fire would not spread to the house.

As to dyed fuel: this is a road tax issue, a generator is not required to have road tax paid fuel... Run the red stuff (or home heating oil, but not kerosene) and be happy because home heating oil is basically diesel fuel anyway. If you are worried about lubricity then consider just adding some diesel treatment--stuff is cheap enough.

 

[Isaac-1]

A few follow up points

The NEC requirement for the generator to be able to carry the full size load when using whole house automatic transfer switch is relatively new (I think NEC version for 2009), not all states have adopted the new code yet, many are still on the 2005 or 2006 code.

The 200 amp Cutler Hammer manual switch from Harbor Freight is a great deal on that switch, much cheaper than you will find that same switch at any electronic parts house. (call around and ask for quotes if you like) I don't know how they managed to swing a deal like that with a brand name company like Cutler Hammer, not your typical Harbor Freight product.

Ike

 

[PeterD]

1. Yes, it is the newest NEC code. I do know of a few who have been 'bitten' by it however!

2. FWIW, that box is also (physically) large. Were I to need a whole house switch-over setup I'd absolutely use it.

 

[Dodge man]

If you're going to build the building I'd make it out of concrete block and fill the voids with sand to help block noise. CB is fire-proof and will block the noise better than metal or wood.

Personally I would not store that amount of fuel in the same building with a generator! I'd try to use an underground tank or a heavy steel external tank but weld a lockable box over the outlet and valves and add some kind of locking device to the fill port. If you insist on keeping the fuel inside then I'd store it in 20 or 30 gallon drums and move them outside before starting the generator. If you're building your building then you might also be able to build a solid firewall to separate the generator and (inside) fuel storage.

Bury the cable going to the house to keep the copper thieves from getting it! I'd encase the ends where it comes out of the ground in concrete to keep them from grabbing one end and pulling it out of the ground. That's what they did to a friend of mine's underground wiring recently.

How long will 250 gallons run a generator of that size? That sounds like a lot of fuel.

 

[Beerslayer]

I am building a generator shed. It will have the fuel stored inside. I checked with the county building inspector, it is allowed, and can be done safely. I don't feel comfortable leaving either generator or fuel stored outside where it is subject to theft. Here is a photo of the shed.

 

[namedpipes]

The tank capacity was arbitrary. A home heating oil tank around here is ~ 250gal and fairly cheap. Power outages around here *tend* to be short but have lasted a day or so in the past.

Theft is an issue here, why I'd lean to having the tank in with the genset.

btw, thanks everyone for the great feedback.

 

[Isaac-1]

Diesel is safe to store indoors, fumes can be an issue in an occupied structure though. If you go with a tank that large add extra filtration to clear out the stuff (water, stuff that grows in water, etc) that will build up as the fuel gets old. For long term storage the best way to keep diesel is in sealed 55 gallon drums so no moisture gets in. I fuel my MEP-701 with one that I have fitted a pick up tube with shut off valve and a draincock valve, before starting on remote tank, I simply open both valves. In my case the drum of fuel is in my shed and the generator is outside connected by a cheap hydraulic hose.

Ike

 

[dogkiller]

mep 802a system

I have a camp site with 2 travel trailers, we used the 802a in a 20' conex, cut air vents & ducted the cooling air & exhaust out the side
we ran underground to a breaker box with breakers for both trailers, works great..
used a 50 gal truck saddle tank to feed the aux fuel, works great..
besides that we used a well pump & pressure tank fed from a water trailer to provide water....
no one has complained about the noise......
AND the girls are happy.......

 

[baxter]

Just for info most states are getting ready to adopt the new 2011 code. I have used that CH 200A switch from harbor frieght, I think it was about $400, I can get it from my supply house for around $375 thats contractor price. I also believe the Mep 003 runs about 1 gal/hr.

Vaughn

 

[DAP]

I put mine in the garage, open the door to generator height and block of the rest with a metal plate. Then heat and exhaust all goes outside but I can lock door.