M35A2 Cold Weather Starting problems

[saddamsnightmare]

January 19th, 2008.

Learned masters of the Deuce, I have a question or two:

Well, it was 25*F last night, and this morning the M35A2 decides not to start when I'm rolling out the door to work, so the Unimog bails it out. The truck's been running well lately, except it was a slow starter yesterday under 30*F temperatures, other then that the alternator guage has been indicating normal charging rates, the temperature guage has been intermittent, and the fuel gauge has been very intermittent in operation, and NO lights were left on. My best guess is that the batteries are Government issue, probably more then 7 years old as they have lot numbers on the tops, and given that this truck has covered little more then 1275 miles since 2002 in Government and private use,
the batteries are probably terminal and not up to the job of starting her in cold weather.
I have the 1975 -10 manual and it says to refer to maintenance, and the CD manuals are on the computer and so I just have to dig (I LOVE those old paper manuals, you can heft and open right up) in there. Symptoms: master switch on, air brake buzzer on, engine stop in, push starter button in and flame heater switch on, and NOTHING!!
Headlights work, but no crank.
I'll either have to dig up a very heavy set of jumper cables and see if the Unimog can charge it (over a short time), or locate a heavy duty 24VDC charger and recharge it, but my basic guess is as this truck ran in temperatures above 30*F, the batteries probably bought it and they ain't gonna be cheap. But you get what you pay for.
IF THE INDICATIONS ARE FOR REPLACEMENT OF THE BATTERIES:WHAT MAKES OR SIZE DO YOU FIND WORK BEST IN THESE TRUCKS? (No, I'm not shouting, it's for us old guys without reading glasses ala John Hancock). I am also looking for a set of air compressor gaskets for the base and rear round crank cover, also the fuel filter base gaskets as mine have started to leak slightly (NEVER BRAG about your truck not leaking, I did and the gremlins decided to make me pay for my pride).
Thanks again for the many kindesses, particularly Mr. G. Kivett and Mr. Will Wagner for assisting me with windshield and cab seat mounting screws, and for the MANY useful insights and comments that the members have furnished to me.

I remain, Sirs and Madames,
Most Sincerely,

Kyle F. McGrogan

1963 Mercedes Benz Unimog S404.114 (Swiss)
1971 KAiser Jeep Wo/W "Saddam's Nightmare" Vietnam and Desert Storm Veteran Deuce
(that doesn't like the cold, apparently).

 

[beaubeau]

Hey Sadamsnightmare, it sounds like U got a handle on it. Old bat. will not work well as temps drop. If U get new ones be sure to get at least 1000cca .The higher the better. I went from 2 6volt bats in my backhoe to 1 1025cca and it started all winter long when I needed it. Be sure to hook them up the same way to get 24volts. Good luck Phil

 

[cbvet]

You really need to attempt to charge the batteries fully, then use a load tester on each one.
I don't have a 24 volt charger. I charge the batteries one at a time with a common 12 volt charger.
I picked up a $20 load tester from Harbor Freight that works fine. It's such a simple device, I see no benefit in buying a more expensive one.
Once you have good charged batteries, you need to start checking connections, Especially the ground.
Eric
CBVET

 

[Armada]

When you try to crank the engine over, does the volt gauge show a draw? If not, try tapping on the starter a few times with a hammer. Sometimes a little corrosion and the cold will not allow contact. Also, you stated things are being intermittant..... Sounds like you need to check some grounds. Start with the battery connections and then check the chassis grounds.
It you need batteries, I would go with the military U6TL's. They have a very long crank reserve. My .02

 

[cranetruck]

The TMs vary widely on this, but limit your cranking time to about 20 seconds and let the starter cool for one or two minutes before next try.
If the battery voltage drops below 20 volts while cranking, don't continue, you risk burning up your starter.
The engine needs to rev about 200 rpm to start.
Just some basics.
To load test your batteries, turn on the headlights for about 5 minutes, then let batteries recover and measure the voltage. The reading should be at least 24.8 after that test if they are fully charged.
Charging one battery at a time is better than charging both in series.
There are plenty of commercial batteries that will do the job too, Optimas are hard to beat.

 

[saddamsnightmare]

January 25th, 2008.

Saddam's Nightmare decided when it hit 30*F the other day to start on the second revolution without me doing anything!!! I still think the batteries are marginal, but it's been so cold and icy here that I've decided to let her sit untill tomorrow or Sunday when the daytime highs will be in the 50 to mid 60 degree range. I'm going to take off the bridging cable between the two batteries, and charge each one completely, then I'll hund up the load meter and have at it. She would probably benefit from having all terminals and connections cleaned clear up to the starter, but the other day when all this started there wasn't a click, groan or anything else except the headlights would come on and the air buzzer would go off also. The are UT6's or whatever Uncle put on her, butthey do seem to be ancient and I have no doubt that she was under used. The Ammeter inticates the normal charge rate in the green band when she starts, with no fluctuations.
I almost believe she inherited the cussedness of the six mules used on the Model 1855 Leavenworth Quartermaster Wagons in the Civil War, but most days she starts without the flame heater and with little fuss or bother, just the usual lot of smoke from the stack until she warms up. I will have to attend to the intermittent fuel and temperature gauges as there is something going on there, but the Unimog's been having her fits recovering from a contaminated gasoline system (Water & Rust, courtesy Valero's here in Paris, ended up needing a new fuel pump and carburettor due to the abrasives).
I'll keep you posted on the outcome. Thanks again for the time, trouble and many kindnesses,

Sincerely,

Kyle F. McGrogan

1963 Mercedes Benz S404.114 Unimog (Swiss)
1971 Kaiser Jeep M35A2 Wo/W "Saddam's Nightmare" Vietnam and Desert Storm Veteran Deuce

 

[acetomatoco]

You can hook your car and the wifes, or other, car each up to one of the batteries to give them a charge.. After a while, leave em hooked on and try to start her again.. if nothing, its possible that the starter relay on the side of the block has puked or the starter itself, if no cranking at all. the group 31 top post commercial batteries are 1000CCA and were standard equipment in the CUCV along with The 6TN and 6TL low maintenance .

 

[joec]

Pulling the throttle out about 2-3 clicks lets the engine go to 1,000rpm. Jatonka has the adapters to put on the oil filters to allow and use of a anti drain back setup. SO THE FILTERS WILL BE FULL. And use spin on filters. I had my pan off of mine. And the mains and rods look great. I use 15/40 SHELL rottela. I started mine the other day at 18 and it fires up the second try. I live up here in NJ. Started yesterday and it was 24. Had to do some winching. And broke a shear pin!!!

 

[derby]

I too have a cold blooded Deuce,the date code on the batts is Aug.02.I think the cold has killed them, they were fine above 30 deg. but this last cold snap (5 DEG.) has yielded about 20 sec of crank time then they start to fall flat.I charged them each individualy and still died quickly. I would like to get new ones but have heard some bad stories about the 6tl or what ever they are.When I was younger I worked in a batt shop and the owner told me that the more CCA you have the more plates were sandwiched together.He said that they did not last as long due to the vibrations that would short the plates out.they told me that the best was a 850 CCA.Of course they are out of business now? Anybody have any input on the best batts? .also I don't think the flame heater is working,as the ground wire was disconnected.I did connect it and no a..a.. come to think of it, that is when the batts seemed to get weak. Is it possable there is a short in the flame heater?

 

[emr]

Re: RE: M35A2 Cold Weather Starting problems

I too have a cold blooded Deuce,the date code on the batts is Aug.02.I think the cold has killed them, they were fine above 30 deg. but this last cold snap (5 DEG.) has yielded about 20 sec of crank time then they start to fall flat.I charged them each individualy and still died quickly. I would like to get new ones but have heard some bad stories about the 6tl or what ever they are.When I was younger I worked in a batt shop and the owner told me that the more CCA you have the more plates were sandwiched together.He said that they did not last as long due to the vibrations that would short the plates out.they told me that the best was a 850 CCA.Of course they are out of business now? Anybody have any input on the best batts? .also I don't think the flame heater is working,as the ground wire was disconnected.I did connect it and no a..a.. come to think of it, that is when the batts seemed to get weak. Is it possable there is a short in the flame heater?

Like everything else its a matter of maintenance, ive heard of 8 years and still going, and i have a couple at 6 yrs and still going , i always clean and charge my bats and in the past rotated a 5 amp 24 volt thru the year and on the twice a year removal ,clean and spray paint the bat boxs,I would charge em individually, NOW im useing the desulphator charger maintainer full time on em all, they will last indefinitly ,well longer than any previuos charger anyway, cant wait to see em in a few years,,, batterystuff.com as pointed out by Bjorn is the place to shop, charge ,maintain,never needs to come off will never drain water, water proof housing and desulphator for i think 119, ive got one on each truck , now i think this kind of investment pays for itself, Randy

 

[tonidial]

RE: Re: RE: M35A2 Cold Weather Starting problems

When I picked up my duece in early jan, bot batteries (u6 jobs) had died a cold death. I took them out and went to the nearest Napa. They gave me 2 semi batteries I believe 800 cca's and with a little elbo grease they stuffed into the battery boxes with no need for a hold down. I will probably need a crowbar to get em out though!

 

[Ferroequinologist]

EMR, what model charger are you using? One that charges and desulphats? Couldn't find the right one on batterystuff.com.

Thanks.

 

[cranetruck]

EMR, what model charger are you using? One that charges and desulphats? Couldn't find the right one on batterystuff.com.

Thanks.

I think you'll be hard pressed to find one that does both.
A solar powered version of "Chargetek 500" would be nice, I don't see the need for the desulfator when the trucks are used regularily.

Some statements about Optima batteries found during a search:

"Sulfation of Batteries starts when voltage measures less than 12.4 Sulfation hardens the battery plates reducing and eventually destroying the ability of the battery to generate power.... The longer a battery sits and is not re-charged the more damaging sulfation build up there may be on the plates. OPTIMA'S win again here due to the very low self discharge rates"

 

[ida34]

Does the Mog have a nato slave cable receptical? If so I would get a slave cable for these situations. I just had to use mine to start my Cucv that had been sitting.

 

[ida34]

http://www.batterystuff.com/battery-chargers/24-volt/0-4amps/BM24041.html

This one is a 24 volt charger that maintains and desulfates. It is $134 though. My 12 volt charger desulfates or .as it calls it, reconditions. I run each battery individually once in a while on the vehicles that sit.

 

[saddamsnightmare]

January 27th, 2008. "SADDAM'S NIGHTMARE" PART 4(?)

Its up to the low 30's in the mornings and the mid 50's during the day, "Saddam's Nightmare" cranked over in less then 1 revolution & brought me to work today! The batteries seem to work above the mid-20's, and while I noticed the comment above on maintenance- I would point out that many of our trucks got less then the ususal in the later years of their military lives, so between that and low mileage (NG & AR trucks), we are often playing catch up on repairs and upgrades."SADDAM'S NIGHTMARE" is running, and the temperature gauge is on but the fuel guage is out (Still), so there are issues (Rumbling's actually- from the better 1/2 about "Buy a NEW truck- hah!) here and there. I'll charge the batteries tomorrow or the next day- but I belive that sheer old age is probably at fault.
In regards to the UNIMOG, the Swiss S404.114's are described as the Model "A"'a of Unimog's, simiple, crude, easy to fix, but no frills. Mine has had a month of recovery from very dirty TEXAS gasoline that required replacing the fuel pump, carburettor and cleaning out the tanks, and fitting them with the intake screen filter called for in the Mercedes manual. HOWEVER- the Swiss in 1963 never seemed to subscribe to NATO doctrine, so the Unimog has no NATO plug, receptacle or anything else, just a trailer plug (which requires an adapter to work with NATO or US trailers. SO I have to dig around and find a good waterproof NATO slave cable receptacle, then an affordable
slave cable and adapter (on EBAY they always seem to get out of sight on the prices) so I can use the UNIMOG as a starter truck in a pinch. Speaking of which- EVER NOTICE how there's no good suppliers in the states willing to do a new Swiss cab paulin and cargo tarpaulin in OD canvas?? Those of use with M35's and 5 tons don't realize how good we currently have it with GMA still making new ones. Yes, I know they're rubberized vinyl, I don't know how long they last in the weather, but they're still cheap for the amount of material involved- check replacement tops for Jeeps in proportion they are expensive items!!!!
Do keep me appraised of your best thoughts and insights, and please realize, gentlemen and ladies, that I hold you all in deep regard for your knowledge and many kindnesses,

I remain,
Most Sincerely,

Kyle F. McGrogan
1963 Mercedes Benz Unimog S404.114 (Swiss)
1971 Kaiser Jeep M35A2 Wo/W "Saddam's Nightmare" Vietnam and Desert Storm Deuce Veteran Truck

 

[ptg530C]

Up here in the thumb, I find that once it gets below 25 or so you start to experience cold starting problems. First off, the best thing you can do is to start your truck at least once a week and let it idle at least until the air alarm goes off. Dont forget to put a can on your exhaust pipe. I dont use the engine flame heater very often either. My batteries are Auto-zone TRUCK batteries and I only run 2 instead of 4. As far a jumping it if the batts die, I just use a car or truck on 1
of the batteries and it should fire right up. If the batts are not destroyed because of sulfids, they should charge right up and hold a charge for a couple of weeks
even with the temp BELOW 0. My Auto-zone batts are 6 years old and still hold a charge for at least 2 weeks at 0.

 

[MasterChief]

I am new to "posting" so I hope errors will be overlooked...
I agree with"joec" that the JATONKA setup is good.
I live in northern Maine and plow with my Deuce.

1967 multi fuel turbo diesel.
I have no cold ( and I mean COLD - like minus 20) starting problems.
My procedure is an ass pain but works well:

Clean those fuel filters of water - just like in the manual!!
Use a quality diesel fuel aditive
keep ALL electrical conections sterilzed clean - not just at the batteries , all the way to the starter!
(special note: check the ground cable from the starter to the frame)

Watch the fluid level in the battery cells - refill with distilled water.
Only do so above freezing!

I use the military "block heater" for the water jacket
And a (U.S.A. made) Wolverine brand oil pan heater.
And a (U.S.A. made) heating blanket around my batteries.
All three heaters are hard wired into one plug that is controlled by an automatic temp. sensing outlet that prevents unnecessary use.

Some may call this "over-kill". Hey- call it what you want!
My Deuce works for a living!
I need dependable starts in ANY weather.
I have had NO problems starting even at minus 20F!

I can provide details and part numbers if it would help anyone.

 

[cranetruck]

.....
I use the military "block heater" for the water jacket
And a (U.S.A. made) Wolverine brand oil pan heater.
And a (U.S.A. made) heating blanket around my batteries.
All three heaters are hard wired into one plug that is controlled by an automatic temp. sensing outlet that prevents unnecessary use...

Your starter motor will love you for this.

 

[Heavysteven]

What's the military block heater?