MEP005 starting issue

[shanekarl]

I have a MEP005 generator and am the least technical/mechinical person I know so hoping someone can give me some easy pointers to figure out what's wrong.

When I use the 3 position starter switch and push it up to start, its not starting, its not even turning over, I do hear the fuel pump running. Also I want to add the batteries are fine, I keep them on a trickle charger.

if I try it many, many times, sometimes I can get it to turn over and when that happens it will start right up. I thought it might be a switch at first but logically the switch is working as I hear the fuel pump (just like when I battle short it) when I put it to start so I dont think the switch is bad.

My thought was to put it in run and use a screwdriver across the starter and see if it reliably starts that way to eliminate the starter as an issue, thoughts or other ideas?

Thanks!

 

[Ray70]

Hi Shane, sorry to hear you're having issues with the 005, hope it's been good to you otherwise!
For starters, don't put a screwdriver across the 2 large battery studs on the starter, you'll get a big surprise! ( and probably melt your screwdriver )
The problem could possibly be a dirty starter or sticky solenoid.
On the solenoid mounted to the side of the starter you should have a battery wire and 2 small wires on a large stud and a single, much smaller wire on another little stud at the 12:00 position.
If you have a 24V test light of DMM, check if you are getting 24V+ on the single small wire when you push up on the start switch.
If you get voltage, your switch and electronics are good.
You can try tapping sharply on the solenoid a few times then try the switch again.

Also, if you have 2 people, check to see if the starter solenoid clicks loudly when you press the switch.
If it is, the solenoid is not closing fully and is not making the battery connection to send power to the starter motor to crank it.

If you do not get 24V at that small wire when trying to crank, then we need to dig deeper into the electrical system.
You can also apply 24V to the small wire and the starter should crank if it's good.

 

[shanekarl]

Hi Shane, sorry to hear you're having issues with the 005, hope it's been good to you otherwise!
For starters, don't put a screwdriver across the 2 large battery studs on the starter, you'll get a big surprise! ( and probably melt your screwdriver )
The problem could possibly be a dirty starter or sticky solenoid.
On the solenoid mounted to the side of the starter you should have a battery wire and 2 small wires on a large stud and a single, much smaller wire on another little stud at the 12:00 position.
If you have a 24V test light of DMM, check if you are getting 24V+ on the single small wire when you push up on the start switch.
If you get voltage, your switch and electronics are good.
You can try tapping sharply on the solenoid a few times then try the switch again.

Also, if you have 2 people, check to see if the starter solenoid clicks loudly when you press the switch.
If it is, the solenoid is not closing fully and is not making the battery connection to send power to the starter motor to crank it.

If you do not get 24V at that small wire when trying to crank, then we need to dig deeper into the electrical system.
You can also apply 24V to the small wire and the starter should crank if it's good.

Hey Ray,

The generator has been a beast until this issue. I worked with Pete today who I bought my remote start kit from and isolated the issue. The S9 speed switch has a bad switch in it. When I unthreaded the screw on connector on s9 on the speed switch and jumper A and B as mentioned by guyfang in another article on the forum it will turn over fine. As soon as I pull the jumper and put the wiring harness back s9 it wont turn over again.

I pulled the s9 switch apart and one of the 3 switches in side is stuck down/open. The other two rebound when you press them.

Hopefully I can get all the parts ordered to rebuild the speed switch s9.

Here is an article on the issue and a very very big thanks to Pete who spent hours on the phone helping me diag this tonight.

MEP 005a/004a Speed switch tear down and repair (mechanical version)

This is going to be a picture tutorial on the speed switch. There are two different kinds some units have an electronic version which has a more square enclosure and the mechanical version which is a round casing. This is going to be covering the round mechanical version I used to have a unit...

www.steelsoldiers.com

Shane

 

[Ray70]

Good job Shane, that's what I like to see!
You guys took the time and did your research, found info on a similar thread, investigated and found your problem!
Excellent progress so far. Now you just need to free up or replace that sticky switch.
I saw that the original switch was discontinued, but at first glance it looked like a pretty common micro switch, hopefully you can find replacements easily!
Let us know how you progress through it.

 

[shanekarl]

Peter and I working on the generator s9 switch (Peter doing all the work to be honest)

 

[shanekarl]

She's alive, SHES ALIVEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!

Peter worked a miracle rebuilding that s9 in no time flat and now the generator is reliably starting.

For anyone who may need to do this in the future, my S9, has 3 mechanical switches in side and the switch that connects to the starter was ordered from here:

Manufactured by - JOHNSON ELECTRIC SAIA BURGESS

V4T7 Sensors & Switches from JOHNSON ELECTRIC In Stock, Order Now! 2-Year Warranty - DISCONTINUED BY MANUFACTURER, LIMIT SWITCH 5AMP 3BLADE

www.radwell.com

We did not have to replace it but the switch for the excitation function can be ordered here:

https://www.newark.com/itw-switches/11-104/micro-sw-pin-plunger-spdt-10a/dp/23F161?ost=23f161

and the third switch for the over speed is no longer sold but mine was in good working order.

One other note as this was a first for me and not obvious.... The switches in the S9 are very hard to pull out of the s9 itself, but if you twist the entire assembly to unwind the wire harness they come out far enough to easily work on.

Overall this was a very good day and tomorrow we will install the remote start kit!

 

[Ray70]

Excellent work guys ( Pete! )
Glad she's reliable again, can't wait to see the remote start completed.... gonna be an awesome setup!

 

[Guyfang]

The S9 is a rather special case. Its normally, the S9-1, (pins A&B) start switch function that goes bad. Its rare, that the S9-1, (Pins A&C) Excitation Switch that fails. The S9-2 switch is only used by Precise Power sets. The S9-3 is the Over Speed function. It rarely goes bad, as its a once in a life time event, to see one over speed.


BUT, the S9 is always overlooked, when starting and excitation problems occur. When a 004A, 005A or 006A will not start, that's the very first place I look. Jumping things with screwdrivers, and replacing things is not trouble shooting. AND, as the removal of J37, and putting a paper clip in pins A&B is about the easiest things to do, always check here first. Too many folks read OVER SPEED, and think, what would that have to do with starting and excitation?

Never toss a mechanical S9 away. Its sometimes possible to make one of two. The Solid State S9 is not repairable by the unwashed masses.

 

[peapvp]

The S9 is a rather special case. Its normally, the S9-1, (pins A&B) start switch function that goes bad. Its rare, that the S9-1, (Pins A&C) Excitation Switch that fails. The S9-2 switch is only used by Precise Power sets. The S9-3 is the Over Speed function. It rarely goes bad, as its a once in a life time event, to see one over speed.


BUT, the S9 is always overlooked, when starting and excitation problems occur. When a 004A, 005A or 006A will not start, that's the very first place I look. Jumping things with screwdrivers, and replacing things is not trouble shooting. AND, as the removal of J37, and putting a paper clip in pins A&B is about the easiest things to do, always check here first. Too many folks read OVER SPEED, and think, what would that have to do with starting and excitation?

Never toss a mechanical S9 away. Its sometimes possible to make one of two. The Solid State S9 is not repairable by the unwashed masses.

Guy, thanks, hope all is well, I thought I am going to put my 25 cents in at this point.
The S9-1 Switch, which is the small micro switch, has internally a tiny little spring installed to return the switch to the normally closed position which would be contact A & B.
This spring just wears out over time, measured here in decades.

The replacement is simple, but is requires small fingers and a steady hand, besides a 30W solder iron.

Shane bought the last two S9-1 switches Radwell had in stock in the US. These are the original switches, same manufacture, same part number. Radwell has 8 off them left at the moment in their UK facility.

I suggested to Shane to buy twp of the S9-2 switches as well just in case, which are available from Newark. Again same manufacturer but new part number now. Newark has a datasheet posted on their product page for this switch for the entire family of these switches.

The manufacturer discontinued the S9-3 switch with reset function.

Shane posted the links in post #6 above.

My suggestion to any 004A, 005A, 006A owner would be to get the S9-1 switch from Radwell now and replace it even if your Genset is running.

The same applies to Shane's other thread on the A11 exciter assembly. I will post an other comment on that topic on that thread.

I would like to thank Shane for being a great host and I am looking forward getting the Auto Start Kit and ATS going on my next trip!

Peter

 

[Guyfang]

Peter, Shane,

Thanks for closing the loop. This is what really helps folks. Closing the loop.

Now, I wonder is some smart fella might think about looking at the solid state S9?

 

[peapvp]

Peter, Shane,

Thanks for closing the loop. This is what really helps folks. Closing the loop.

Now, I wonder is some smart fella might think about looking at the solid state S9?

Ok, Shane also had ordered a solid state S9 NOS off ebay for $ 350.00 plus shipping in preparation of me coming out to help him fix this S9 as a backup solution in case our switch repair would fail miserably.

I think we should look at it this way:

The micro switch S9-1 costs $ 30.00 plus shipping from radwell

The NOS SS S9 is/was $ 350.00

For someone on a budget and who can work with small parts, the micro switch would be a very feasible and affordable solution.

Comparing the installed S9-1 with the new switch, I can say the difference in spring strength can be felt and is audible

Looking at the fact that this S9 unit was manufactured in 1982 (original S9 was probably replaced), I would say they are of very high quality


Now, the SS S9 is probably fine, depending on how they were stored and how the internal components have aged / degraded, since most of them available are NOS.

It is off course a lot easier and much faster to just remove the connector and 1 bolt and swap S9's to get Genset going again.

Further, for the owner who has a hard time soldering and dealing with very small screws, the SS S9 is definitely the better option.

 

[Guyfang]

Of course. But there are ever fewer Mech S9's around. The SS S9 is more prevalent. I have to admit, I only one or two times took a SS switch apart, and promptly tossed them in the garbage. Not worth my time and trouble, when the SS switch was to be had in less then 24 hours, from the SSA, and later, we had them in our bug out box. At least 2-3. Now, that is not in this realm of conception. Any S9 to be had, is hard to come by. Someone should at least take a look see at a few bad ones, and find out it its possible to repair.

 

[peapvp]

I would like to add this here, so the owner, who is interested in repairing / refurbishing their mechanical S9 switch, can see on how much time is involved:

it took us (Shane and myself):

1. 5 - 10 minutes to remove S9 from Genset

2. app. 15 minutes to disassemble S9 to get fairly easy to the S9-1 switch

3. app 20 to 30 minutes to de-solder all three leads from S9-1 switch, remove the upper bracket, remove switch, solder new switch back in, secure new switch to bracket, reinstall upper bracket

4. app 5 - 10 minutes reassemble all three parts of S9, making sure the upper an lower half's are in the same position as before and the reset push button with push rod resets S9-3 switch

5. 5 minutes reinstall S9 in Genset

So, it's about an hour to hour and a half job to replace the S9-1 switch

Shane and myself decided to go this way to see if S9-1 can be Fairly easily repaired without any special tools / equipment besides a solder iron (30W to 50W), Solder, Screw Driver, pair of needle nose pliers and an open box wrench. I also used a pair of tweezers to solder wires back on to the new switch.

The answer is yes.

 

[leedawg]

Hey Ray,

The generator has been a beast until this issue. I worked with Pete today who I bought my remote start kit from and isolated the issue. The S9 speed switch has a bad switch in it. When I unthreaded the screw on connector on s9 on the speed switch and jumper A and B as mentioned by guyfang in another article on the forum it will turn over fine. As soon as I pull the jumper and put the wiring harness back s9 it wont turn over again.

I pulled the s9 switch apart and one of the 3 switches in side is stuck down/open. The other two rebound when you press them.

Hopefully I can get all the parts ordered to rebuild the speed switch s9.

Here is an article on the issue and a very very big thanks to Pete who spent hours on the phone helping me diag this tonight.

MEP 005a/004a Speed switch tear down and repair (mechanical version)

This is going to be a picture tutorial on the speed switch. There are two different kinds some units have an electronic version which has a more square enclosure and the mechanical version which is a round casing. This is going to be covering the round mechanical version I used to have a unit...

www.steelsoldiers.com

Shane

Just saw this post, glad you sorted the problem, was gonna say sounds like a speed switch issue to me. Glad my post helped you out!!!! And always thank you Guy your knowledge is incredible on these units!

 

[peapvp]

Update:

I went down to Liberty, KS this weekend to visit with Shane to check up on our repair of the S9 switch and overhaul on the A11 on my last visit in the end of July and to install our auto start kit Shane had purchased back in early 2021 while he was still living in Texas, but we couldn't find anyone who could help him install it.

The install was rather uneventful. We had solicited one of Shanes friends as intern to drill the holes required as he wants to become a mechanical engineer.

After the installation of the Board and wiring it, everything worked as intended until I got to the point of wiring our Kext 00x relay for load shedding to turn off CB2. This relay disables the self holding AUX contact on CB2 during remote operation, but leaves all the protection contacts from various relays in place.

The S3 Switch on this Genset was replaced quite some time ago by Depot Maintenance, indicated by a missing lock washer under nut.

The person who changed this switch got two wires swapped and one wire on the wrong terminal, which is not noticeable when operating manually.

However, the correct wiring scheme on this switch is required when installing our Kext Relay for correct operation

The correct connections on the S3 Switch as follows (for 004A, 005A, 006A):

S3-2 P50C and P50D
S3-3 P56B (Aux Contact) and P56A (Jumper)
S3-5 P57A (Positive Side of Coil CB2)
S3-6 P56A (Jumper)

This reflects the DC wiring diagram on the plaque on the rear right engine cover

On my next visit to Shane we will be installing his ATS and get everything else squared away.

@Ray70 did a really great Job preparing this Genset for Shane.

Peter