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powering 12v accessories

Rich Johnson

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San Diego CA
Ok, so I want to do two things here;

1. wire up a straight 12v source for my ham radio. It will have its own inline fuse. Where should I get 12v + and ground?

2. Wire up a cigarette lighter in the correct place. My friend said that there are J plugs that stick into the fuse box, but I dont know where to do that on the box, and it seems that none of those spots are "Hot" without the key turned on. Please give direction here.

M1008 truck.
 

OL AG '89

Member
743
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18
Location
Kingwood, Texas
your best bet IMHO for powering gear that is always hot and will have an inline fuse is the terminal block under the hood. just coneect a voltmeter and find the 12 volt side.....You can add a ring terminl to one of the terminals and either run a wire into the cab to power everything or just string individual wires to each component. I have a M1009 with fuseblock issues and have found it is safer, more convenient to do this rather than adding on to the fuse block and possibly cusing more issues
 

Rich Johnson

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Location
San Diego CA
Ok, the 12v Junction on the firewall would be perfect for the radios and accesories plugs, but, where would the cigarette lighter have wired into a civy truck in the fuse pannel, wouldnt that be the correct place to hook that unit into?
 

K9Vic

Active member
1,261
7
38
Location
Fort Worth, TX
Well just about everything in a civi truck runs through the fuse block or is fused in some way. You do not need to do this on the CUCV, just be sure to fuse the wire as close to the 12v battery terminal or 12v terminal block as you can. I would not suggest piggy backing on the fuse block, that can overload what ever that position is for. Never install anything in any vehicle with out a fuse or fusable link, this is to protect it from shorts that can cause a fire. If you buy a 12v accessory jack and it is not fused, you will need to add one.
 

tennmogger

Well-known member
Steel Soldiers Supporter
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Location
Greenback, TN
Hi Rich,

For ham radio the best source is directly from the 12v battery. Run both pos and neg radio power wires to the battery terminals. Don't rely on chassis ground return. Not only will you get more stable voltage without voltage drop but the power will have less radio noise.

The cigar lighter you asked about should not be considered for radio power.

Be sure to fuse both the pos and the neg leads. The neg lead has to be fused in case there's a poor connection in any of the truck's grounding connections in the future. You don't want the truck electrical to see your radio's negative lead as a better ground. Both fuses should be near the battery.

The battery will act as a huge capacitior to smooth out the variations in truck voltage due to alternator variations (essentially unfiltered high frequency DC pulses), starter spikes, etc.

Run your radio wires to the radio in a route near chassis but not bundled along with other wiring. This will also lessen noise picked up on the power leads. If you operate HF, this can make the difference between a quiet radio operation and being unusably noisy.

If you want to switch the radio power with the key, place a continuous duty relay (solenoid, sic) at the battery pos feed and power it's coil off a keyed lead. The relay draws negligible power so won't load the keyed circuit.

It's a good idea to turn off the radio power there at the battery when you start and shut off the truck. Inductive spikes can wipe out the radio. Note that many modern radios are 'powered" all the time. Even when "off", there are circuits that remain active (notably the power amps and computer chips). The on-off function is often handled through the computer, not by a heavy switch like old radios. I just fried a 2 meter transceiver from not following my own advice.

I really like the DC power distribution panels with Andersen Powerpole connectors. Get a model with as many terminals as you might need, and with the heavy leads to run to the battery.. Info here:http://www.westmountainradio.com/, the rigrunners.

Bob WB4ETT


Ok, so I want to do two things here;

1. wire up a straight 12v source for my ham radio. It will have its own inline fuse. Where should I get 12v + and ground?

2. Wire up a cigarette lighter in the correct place. My friend said that there are J plugs that stick into the fuse box, but I dont know where to do that on the box, and it seems that none of those spots are "Hot" without the key turned on. Please give direction here.

M1008 truck.
 
Last edited:

mistaken1

New member
1,467
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0
Location
Kansas City, KS
Hi Rich,

For ham radio the best source is directly from the 12v battery. Run both pos and neg radio power wires to the battery terminals. Don't rely on chassis ground return. Not only will you get more stable voltage without voltage drop but the power will have less radio noise.

The cigar lighter you asked about should not be considered for radio power.

Be sure to fuse both the pos and the neg leads. The neg lead has to be fused in case there's a poor connection in any of the truck's grounding connections in the future. You don't want the truck electrical to see your radio's negative lead as a better ground. Both fuses should be near the battery.

The battery will act as a huge capacitior to smooth out the variations in truck voltage due to alternator variations (essentially unfiltered high frequency DC pulses), starter spikes, etc.

Run your radio wires to the radio in a route near chassis but not bundled along with other wiring. This will also lessen noise picked up on the power leads. If you operate HF, this can make the difference between a quiet radio operation and being unusably noisy.

If you want to switch the radio power with the key, place a continuous duty relay (solenoid, sic) at the battery pos feed and power it's coil off a keyed lead. The relay draws negligible power so won't load the keyed circuit.

It's a good idea to turn off the radio power there at the battery when you start and shut off the truck. Inductive spikes can wipe out the radio. Note that many modern radios are 'powered" all the time. Even when "off", there are circuits that remain active (notably the power amps and computer chips). The on-off function is often handled through the computer, not by a heavy switch like old radios. I just fried a 2 meter transceiver from not following my own advice.

I really like the DC power distribution panels with Andersen Powerpole connectors. Get a model with as many terminals as you might need, and with the heavy leads to run to the battery.. Info here:West Mountain Radio, the rigrunners.

Bob WB4ETT
Thank you , that is very good advice.

Do not attempt to power a ham radio off the 12V bus on the firewall.

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/cucv/51076-amateur-radio-m1009.html#post581933

I powered my radios directly from the batteries using the existing ground conductor and a new fused #6 12V conductor to a new bus under the radio tray. I should have used a larger wire like a #4 or even a #2.

All radios are individually fused on the positive side but not all are fused on the negative side (need to get that done). I ordered one of the "turn off the comm gear" stickers to put up front to remind me to power off the radios.

Military Stencils by Rick Larsen
 

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sheepdog1

New member
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Location
WA
Great info, thank you! Question...I have an M1008 and my ignorant question, for same basic purposes is...which battery (front or back battery) should the panel be attached to?
 

llong66

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Location
kokomo, In
Mistaken1, not to highjack the thread, but where did you get your radio mount on the dash? Is that a military unit or did you fab it up, its really nice looking!!
 

sheepdog1

New member
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Location
WA
Can anybody either answer this question or point me to a thread that answers the question...precisely?!? Thanks in advance!!
 

ken

Active member
Steel Soldiers Supporter
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Location
Houston Texas
If you wire your radio straight to the battery you might consider going to the rear battery. You will still have 12V across that battery. From it's neg to pos ONLY. This way your second Alternator can power your radio and the first alternator can run the truck. Any lights. horn, heater etc will cause you voltage drops. I realize it will not be much from a 100 amp alternator. But the second alt isn't doing anything after it charges they battery from starting. Might as well give it something to do.
 

MarcusOReallyus

Well-known member
4,524
816
113
Location
Virginia
If you wire your radio straight to the battery you might consider going to the rear battery. You will still have 12V across that battery. From it's neg to pos ONLY. This way your second Alternator can power your radio and the first alternator can run the truck. Any lights. horn, heater etc will cause you voltage drops. I realize it will not be much from a 100 amp alternator. But the second alt isn't doing anything after it charges they battery from starting. Might as well give it something to do.

Enjoy the fireworks show as your shiny new radio antenna lead melts down from the direct short to ground you just created, and your new radio belches smoke.
 

MarcusOReallyus

Well-known member
4,524
816
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Location
Virginia
Let's take a look at the stock system, to get that clear in our heads before we go further. Take a look:

CUCV 24v battery - STOCK.JPG

I have marked the positive terminals as red, and the negative terminals as black.

Now, notice where 12v shows up.

Yep, there is +12v at the NEGATIVE TERMINAL of the rear (24v) battery. That's right, +12v on a negative terminal. Put a voltmeter there and check it if you don't believe it. :) In fact, on the stock setup, the factory wiring goes from the negative terminal of the rear battery straight to the 12v junction block on the firewall.

So, the short answer to your question is, anywhere there is 12v. That's the positive terminal of the front battery, the negative terminal of the rear battery, or the 12v junction block.

If you are going to use that junction block, you might want to beef up the feed from the battery. OR, just connect directly to the battery (front or back) where there is 12v.

Now let's think about why you cannot just connect your radio to the rear battery, unless you want smoke.

Your radio antenna will be attached to the body at some point, and your radio itself will probably be attached at some point. This means that your radio has a direct connection to the ground (chassis) of the system. If you attach the ground lead of your radio to the negative terminal of the rear battery, you have a direct connection between +12v and ground. Dead short. Smoke.

Now, if you can completely isolate the radio from the chassis, then yes, you can use the rear battery. But, that antenna lead is going to break your isolation, unless you do some pretty fancy stuff. It can be done, but you have to know what you are doing and you need some special techniques.

And your antenna cannot use the vehicle body for its ground plane. Probably not what you want.
 

MarcusOReallyus

Well-known member
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816
113
Location
Virginia
You're welcome!

Just for fun, let's take a look at that idea of hooking a radio (or any other accessory) to the rear battery. It seems reasonable, and I think it's helpful for people to understand why it won't work.

First, the idea:

Connecting a radio to the rear (24v) battery.JPG

Looks straightforward enough. That's a 12v battery back there, so if we connect the radio ground to the battery negative terminal, and the radio power lead to the battery positive terminal, we should have 12v to the radio. Yep, that's correct. Makes sense. Good to go, right? Not so fast.....

Let's introduce a new term: "wrt". That means, "with respect to". Any time we specify a voltage, we have to know the reference point. Voltage is just a difference in electrical potential between two points. We can't have a voltage unless we have two points to measure. At Point A, we have XX volts with respect to Point B. Always two points.

When we're talking about automotive stuff, it's just assumed that the reference point is the chassis, which we call, "ground". So we toss around 12v this, and 12v that, and never mention it's "12v with respect to ground". And that's usually just fine. Nothing wrong with that. But, because people assume it, sometimes what's really going on is not understood well.

But when we get into this 24v business, and start monkeying with the rear battery, we'd better understand the concept. In the illustration above, the radio has 12v with respect to the negative terminal of the rear battery. That's fine, but that's not at all the same as 12v wrt ground. That radio, at its power lead, has 24v wrt ground!

Now, that would be just fine and dandy if those were the only two connections to that radio. Really! The radio would never know the difference, and it would be happy as a clam. No problem at all.

But those are not the only two connections to that radio. The chassis of the radio is normally mounted in such a way that it is electrically connected to the chassis of the vehicle. I have indicated that on my drawing below as a wire going to ground (#2 on the diagram below). That "wire" isn't really there - I just put it there to provide a symbol of a real electrical connection that does (usually) exist. Screws go into the body of the radio, attaching it to a mount of some kind, which is in turn screwed into some sheet metal which is electrically connected to the vehicle chassis (ground). So that radio mount is (effectively) the #2 wire.

Then you also have the antenna. That is typically mounted in a way that grounds it to the chassis of the vehicle, and it, in turn, is connected to the chassis of the radio. Again, I have shown this very real connection as a wire which doesn't actually exist (#3 on the diagram below).

So let's look at this:

Connecting a radio to the rear (24v) battery with smoke!.JPG

Take a look at wire #1 there. That's the radio's ground wire, which connects the radio chassis to the negative terminal of the rear battery. Take a voltage reading at that point, and you'll see that it's at 12v wrt vehicle ground, right? Of course it is. It's also connected to the positive terminal of the front battery, with a pretty big cable.

Whoops. That wire #1 (+12v wrt ground) connects to the radio chassis, which is also connected to the vehicle's chassis through #2 and #3!

That means there's a direct connection between +12v wrt vehicle ground and..... vehicle ground! You just connected the positive terminal of the front battery straight to ground through your radio!

The result of that?

smoke.jpg
 

sheepdog1

New member
14
0
1
Location
WA
So, now that I've gotten my head around your very good description...it sounds like I either have to find a way to COMPLETELY isolate the radio mounting AND antenna mounting in this scenario (possible, but too cumbersome at best.) It almost sounds to me like upgrading the existing lead wiring to the 12v bus on the firewall and connecting to that (does it have a special ground nut also on the bus? Is there the same problem with grounding issues as above?!?), may be more effective. My original plan was to install a new Blue Sea ST Fuse Block with direct 12v power to it and run radios off of that, plus some future accessory lighting front and rear for use at the ranch. It seems to me that my idea may NOT be so good and I'm getting out of my league here....I was attempting to have some kind of direct feed to the accessory panel (each circuit fused, etc) and leaving all stock wiring in place, both for assumed simplicity and everything works great and I didn't want it to become a Frankenstein, like a lot of other CUCV's out there. I guess I will continue to read and reflect on what options I may have, or just punt and change up my planned uses for the rig. I'm in a remote area with it and wanted radios for communications and lights for late night, middle of winter calving season, etc. Thanks again for your input and salvation so far!!!
 
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