Propane on a five ton???

[TheBuggyman]

Okay, we all know of the lack of power situation on the NHC-250 Cummins engine and this has been covered ad nauseum by everyone. We all know that we cannot turn up the fuel due to the lack of piston cooling so how about propane injection? There are alot of diesel trucks doing it and I've read that propane to a diesel engine is like nitrous to a gas engine.
Now, you do not have to inject extra fuel into the diesel like you do on a nitrous engine so is there a possibility that some extra power can be made without shooting the EGT's too high? I know that BTU's are what makes the whole thing chug and more chug = more BTU's, but what about the cooling effect of vaporized propane?
This would be a great add-on for that heavy load or steep hill and you could turn it on and off with the touch of a button! If I could make another 50 HP when I need it .......

Gentlemen, begin.................

 

[DaveP]

I never have used the propane. how much cooling do you think can be obtained from this? HP expectations? any limitations? concerns? worrys? thoughts?

 

[Angus1]

I dont know about propane and a diesel, But I converted my trail rig to propane. it runs cool enough at idle to close the thermostat,With a small elc. fan.

 

[joec]

Diesel and propane yes bullydog makes a kit but it's only used for short term use. Nitrous have alittle experience with look to pic

It is old pic but it has new motor. Not diesel but ...


But the kits work under the same principle.

 

[derby]

One of our old JD farm tractors had a propane kit.Looked like a barbeque grill tank that sat on the front weights.It was enough power to rip out the rear end! I dont know about any cooling effect though.

 

[houdel]

There was a thread or two in the Deuce modification and hot-rodding forum about propane injection.

 

[DaveP]

One of our old JD farm tractors had a propane kit.Looked like a barbeque grill tank that sat on the front weights.It was enough power to rip out the rear end! I dont know about any cooling effect though.

What was it like using it? just short burst of rear end ripping power? or could you have used it all the way across the field? providing the ring and pinion held together.

 

[73m819]

driving home to ga. at night a few weeks ago , i was listering to truckers raidio, thay were talking about propane use in otr trucks, there is a outfit in ok. that makes a setup for this use, one guy stated that he has been useing propane for over a year in his 475 cat, before propane injection he was getting about 350 to the ground on dyno and 5 mpg after propane injection he was getting about 525 on the dyno and 9 mpg. he said that propane is injected BEFORE the tubo, and a even mix is feed to the cylinders, the boost controls the feed, as the boost increses, a boost senser tells the injection valve how much to open, he carries a 35 gal. propane tank behind the cab, about evert three tanks of fuel he fills the propane tank.
thay said that the reason propane works is that it helps to TOTALY burn the fuel by enriching the air supply

 

[ARMYMAN30YearsPlus]

We had a propane Allis Chalmers tractor on our farm that was I believe factory equipt to burn the fuel. I recall it running all day long without fuel stops and we had a big propane tank for cooking and running the refrigerator as well.
This was many moons ago so the pictures are all in my mind

 

[snowplow]

Back in the late 50's I recall all the John Deer tractors on my uncle's farms in NM ran on propane, in the winter, had to start them on another fuel (gas disel?) & then after running switching to butane, they ran them all day long in the fields on propane. These were the old giant 2 cylinder tractors.
So I guess they can, I just am not sure if they were gas or disel?

 

[Rattlehead]

I have read that non-turbo motors don't benefit much, if any, from propane injection. This theory confirms my poor results in trying a homebrew propane injection on a Ford 7.3 IDI (non turbo). I played around with different amounts, never felt any improvement from low flow amounts all the way up to it blowing black smoke. However, with the passenger side exhaust outlet being near the height of an open car window in the right lane, I will admit to having a little fun with it before I pulled the stuff off the truck!

I had a temporary cobbled rig in the deuce for a brief period, it wasn't in there long enough to try all the possible settings (flow rate). Then the g/f rode in it and was scared of the propane tank under her feet, so I took it out. Too many other projects, this one was shelved for now.

Speaking of smoke-spewing fun, a guy I worked with once was driving a 6.5L GM diesel through this yuppie tree hugger neighborhood with a bunch of outside cafes one day, and with a scan tool he commanded the EGR open, then matted the throttle. Made for a serious black smoke screen!

Now that I am on a roll: Woodward Dream Cruise a few years ago, hot windy summer day. Idling the deuce for long periods of time and filling up the J-pipe with unburned fuel and oil. What happens after idling and then you blip the throttle? Big belch of smoke comes out, then the wind grabs it and throws it straight down into the lane on your right. Sometimes theres a real fancy prestigous convertible (think Mercedes, etc) next to you with the top down.

 

[joec]

My friends 6.0 in his truck has propane injection. And let me tell you . It works, It hits hard.

 

[alphadeltaromeo]

DieselPower magazine has covered propane quite a bit. Each of the articles focusing on propane had the application with a turbo though. It increased the performance considerably. It may be fun for someone to communicate with DP magazine and see if they will do an article for the MV hobby, focusing on this enhancement to see if it would be worth the investment. Some good ad potential could be had.

 

[gimpyrobb]

If a turbo is required, wouldn't it stand to reason that it is just more fuel in the combustion chamber? The turbo adds the extra air to make the combustion complete? If it helped efficientcy(sp?) it would not need the turbo.

 

[SasquatchSanta]

Seems like I remember hearing that pre-turbo injection could be tricky if not controlled properly. It stands to reason that injecting preturbo would give a better mix and therefore better, more even combustion.

The question would be, how much would boost be increased --- too much, say over 15 to 16 lbs being worrysome and also how propane would effect EGTs. If EGTs spike endagering the tiurbo or if boost spikes endanger the head gaskets it's not a good solution. Because the multi it such a high compression engine, high boot pressures (IMHO) are worrysome. Blowing the top off the fire deck doesn't sound exciting.

I've been toying with the idea but was hoping I could get some opinions on the above before sarting.

My uneducated guess is, assuming boost pressure and EGTs don't get critica, ls that it would be a good way to lower overall fuel cost AND get more power especially "surge" power for climbing a hill or parhaps passing a Greyhound bus

I envision a simple and conservative system with a three way switch mounted on the gear shift lever --- much like a two speed button only it would be a three-way switch --- off, low and high.

Low would be used for regular driving and would only be a "whisp" of injection for better combustion and therefore better economy. High would be a higher rate for hills and Greyhounds. With this system you would have to switch it off when coming to an idle.

Hopefully this thread will develops some legs.

Diesel fuel was $3.79/9 a gallon up here in Blue Ears country Friday. Though propane is usually looked at as a horsepower booster I "think" a properly designed system could also decrease fuel costs.

 

[FreightTrain]

In a traditional Diesel(mid 90s back) the engine only burns 75% of the fuel.The remaining fuel is spit out and wasted.With propane it acts as an oxidizer and allows the engine to burn up to 98% of the fuel injected.The figure for comming up with the amount of propane needed is basically take your current fuel tank and install a propane tank 25% of it's size.Every time you fill your fuel tank,fill the grillin gas too.You do not want to fake it and build your own system.You must ONLY inject gas.If the LP slashes and liquid gets sucked though the hose and into the engine you will grenade said engine pretty fast.You will gain a nice bit of Horse power and fuel milage but the gained MPG will be offset with the cost of the Stinky fuel.You can buy a kit that only cost around 500 clams but you gotta supply a tank that has a Gas discharge only fitting(Fork lift tank).

 

[FreightTrain]

oh,yea,You do not need a turbo but a turbo will maximize the effects.

 

[ida34]

I think a few people may be confused. There is propane injection on compression fired engines (diesel) in which propane is injected like nitros to help the diesel burn more efficiently. The other propane conversion involves spark ignited gasoline engines. This is where the engine is converted to totally run on propane with no gasoline at all. Diesels use the propane augment the diesel fuel while the gasoline conversion convert the gasoline engine to run totally on propane. I don't think they have propane injections systems to augment gas engines.

 

[FreightTrain]

Now if you really want horse power and have Kahoonas the size of beach balls.....Go pane and Windshield washer fluid injection(Water methanol).Get a BIG kick in the butt.But it is real easy to over do the WW injection and screw up an engine.Water cools the air and the alcho give a boost of power.

 

[houdel]

It stands to reason that injecting preturbo would give a better mix and therefore better, more even combustion.

Agreed

The question would be, how much would boost be increased?

Probably not too much. The cooling effect of the vaporizing propane will reduce the volume and temperature of the incoming air flow (but not the mass air flow). I'd guess zero net effect. Any significant boost pressure will come from increased fuel (diesel) delivery by cranking up the IP flow rate (see below).

My uneducated guess is, assuming .... EGTs don't get critical

Other posts suggest a 20%-30% increase in combustion efficiency, and fuel flow rates of 90% diesel to 10% propane. So EGTs theoretically will rise with the increased heat of combustion of the previous unburned fuel, but the heat absorbed by the incoming air flow due to the vaporization of 10% propane injection (assuming the vaporization occurs close to the point of injection) will significantly reduce the temperature (and increase the MASS flow rate) of the incoming air charge. More and cooler incoming air will lower EGTs. My guess is that EGTs will decrease with propane injection, assuming a constant diesel flow rate. If this is correct, then the diesel delivery rate could be increased to provide more power while keeping EGTs at a safe level.

Obviously this is a complex project for the home builder. The propane metering system must be capable of providing a precise diesel/propane ratio for all throttle conditions and fuel delivery adjustments in order to maximize combustion efficiency and keep EGTs at a safe level.

A simple low/high propane delivery switch as you suggest (constant propane delivery independent of diesel flow rate, engine rpm and EGT) will provide some benefit, but how do you calculate the desired propane delivery rate and what hardware are you going to use to achieve whatever propane delivery rate you decide to use? It kind of sound likes most any reasonable propane injection rate will be an improvement, but the RIGHT propane injection rate can provide significant fuel cost savings. But remember, propane isn't free, and what about the road fuel tax for the propane you use?