Timing & Temperature

[SasquatchSanta]

I live in Northeastern Minnesota (Cold Country). In the winter my M35 4X4 (turbo) refuses to heat up past 120 degrees at idle (with full winter front) or past 140 degrees while underway unless I'm working it hard.

I'm replacing the standard cooling fan with an electric unit but I don't think just eliminating the fan is going to solve my problem.

Does anyone know if advancing the timing might help the motor build heat?

I have a pyro and boost gauge and outside of occasionally hauling a little fire wood I never load the truck. The pump hasn't been turned up and I have enough sense to know when to take my foot out of it.

I'm also curious about attainable fuel economy. My truck - go to: www.M35MonsterTruck.com is a 4x4 trubo with fresh 46" Goodyear MVT 395 85 R20s and spin out front hubs. (The website pictures are not current rubber wise). I'm only getting 10 MPG --- any comments or suggestions?

SasquatchSanta Sez Thanks,
Orr Minnesota

 

[WCJIV]

Great looking Truck! 10mpg sounds pretty good as I only get 6-7mpg. How did you make your flagpoles?

 

[cranetruck]

Don't mess with the timing. The multifuels are very efficient engines and use less than 1/2 gallon per hour at idle. They won't heat up unless you run them hard.
Full winter front is good, I use a custom radiator cover all year to keep the temp up (pictures elsewhere on this forum).
Experimenting with the fan is good, but you will need some air flow around the engine to even the temperatures, I would think.

 

[Boatcarpenter]

Have you checked the operation of the thermostat? Could be stuck partially or all the way open.

 

[cranetruck]

My T-stat? Yes it has been checked. Actually cooked it on the stove and observed the action with a thermocouple probe in the water. It begins to open around 180-185°F.
I can run the engine at idle for a long period of time with the radiator cap off..no circulation until the T-stat begins to open at above temp (and that's after running at 1,200-1,400 rpm using the crane for a couple of hours on a warm day). There is some heating of the coolant in the upper tank of the radiator from the contact with the thermostat and engine, I guess, but no circulation. Coolant from the radiator drain remains cool.

 

[Boatcarpenter]

Bjorn, I knew that you had checked your t-stat because you check everything to the last detail!! I was actually asking SasquatchSanta if he had checked his t-stat and run the stovetop test. Most of the operating temp problems I have ever had have been because of poorly operating t-stats.

 

[SasquatchSanta]

Sasquatch Santa sez thanks for the insight.

I should have mentioned in my original post that I have indeed tested and installed a new thermostat --- sorry for the oversight.

The flagpoles on the www.M35MonsterTruck.com 4X4 were made from 1-1/4" round bar with bobbed trailer hitch balls welded to the top. The "Bog-Dog" on the hood is from an old Brockway via Ebay.

The reason I was hitting on timing is because I'm told the LDT & LDS engines have a considerable abount of dwell where fuel is injected during the down/power stroke. My thoughts are that perhaps the engines are timed in this fashion to account for the multi-fuel factor and therefore, if only diesel fuel is being burned and the truck isn't being loaded heavy (which is my case) the stock timing could be tweaked for better performance.

In cold weather (+20 to -40) with engine temperatures at 140 to 150 degrees there is a considerable amount of drooling where unburned fuel is cycled into the exhaust manifold and stack. Considering the mass of the 465 block I can't help but believe that running these engines cold is not only inefficient from a fuel economy standpoint but also extremely hard on liners and rings. Conceivably, it could take all summer to blow the coke outof the rings.

I'm no expert but (just thinking out loud) it stands to reason that advancing the timing would reduce drool and increase heat thereby increasing overall efficiency. A side effect might be a higher RPM power band and a need to pay close attention to the pyro which in my case isn't a problem. Reindeer feed and toys aren't very heavy.

Perhaps a summer and a winter timing setting is in order.

Years ago, dad had a N/A 220 cummins that had been times fast and it ran great.

Your insight will be appreciated. Does anyone have an opinion as to where to start (how many degrees before TDC)? Also, is it possible to time these engines without removing the radiator?

Remember --- Only 169 Days Till Christmas --- Ho Ho Ho!!!!

 

[Katch1]

you will have a hard time getting her up to temp in the winter, if my experiences are typical, I can't get up to temp too quickly, and 10 mpg isn't too bad, thats what those pick-ups with the v-10 get

 

[ken]

If your running in -40 you'll probally need the artic winterizition kit. The quilts for the hood and side panels.

 

[mudguppy]

so, what's a "duce"???

 

[Katch1]

untill you see the difference the fan swap has I wouldn't try anything else, and please post your results. As far as milage maybe you should swap out for fully synthetic? Just a thiught especially way up there

 

[devilman96]

I assume you checked your temp accurately to make sure your guages are correct?

You might also try a different temp thermostat I can not remember exactly but I think there is a 30 + or - available in the same size...

 

[SasquatchSanta]

Replacing the standard "Always On" fan with an electric unit will definately be the first thing to track and post.

Synthetics would no doubt be a good investement.

I'm sure the engine is running cold but I'm going to install a mechanical (thermal-couple) gauge for verification.

According to Memphis Equipment only one thermostat is available.

Arctic winterization kits seem to be as scarce as hen's teeth.

Also, an old diesel mechanic with many years experience with cold weather operations suggested using a restricter vice on the top radiator hose. Take two pieces of 1'x1'x5' long pine. Drill a 3/16 hole 1/2' from each end. sandwinch the two pine pieces around the top radiator hose. put 3/16 all thread with wing nuts through the holes in the end of the pieces. Tighten the wing nuts to restrict the flow in the hose. Experimentation is required. This guy sez old miliraty iron has oversized cooling systems and allowing diesel engines to run cold can cause rings to cold stick.

New pictures have been pisted on the www.M35MonsterTruck.com site.

Thanks for the insight.

 

[jodka]

SasquatchSanta wrote:
"In the winter my M35 4X4 (turbo) refuses to heat up past 120 degrees at idle (with full winter front) or past 140 degrees while underway "

Cranetruck wrote:
"My T-stat? Yes it has been checked. Actually cooked it on the stove and observed the action with a thermocouple probe in the water. It begins to open around 180-185°F. "

SasquatchSanta wrote:
"Also, an old diesel mechanic with many years experience with cold weather operations suggested using a restricter vice on the top radiator hose."


Hi. Was wondering about some things here:

1. Is it correct that SasquatchSanta's thermostat is remaining closed in cold weather, that therefore no water flows to the radiator, and that therefore restricting the radiator hose would not reduce coolant flow and would not raise engine temperature?

2. So is the thermostat opening or not? The evidence seems to suggest two possibilities.
a. The coolant never rises above 140 degrees. The thermostat will not open until the coolant reaches 180 degrees. So the thermostat remains closed.
b. The coolant rises to 180 degrees, the thermostat opens. The reservoir of unwarmed coolant behind thermostat mixes with the warmed coolant and plunges the temperature below 140. The thermostat closes. The engine rises above 180 degrees the thermostat opens...etc. The engine temperature gauge is too slow to detect the oscillation in coolant temperature.

It seems that knowing what is the actual condition would make a big difference in the choice of remedy. For example, if b, then a warmer thermostat or restrictor vise should raise engine temperature. If a, then neither of those should raise temperature. In fact if either of those remedies works, then we might infer thermostat oscillation.

 

[devilman96]

Skip Memphis on the thermostat... (just called Napa)... in the 358 (Deuce size) they have a 180 and 170... If I remember correctly the stock one is 170 so a 180 would buy you 10 degrees.

 

[luapmonn]

I just found this on Ebay. Maybe good for cooling mods http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/16-i...tegoryZ33600QQihZ006QQitemZ160007328896QQrdZ1

 

[cranetruck]

The thermostat begins to open at about 180-185°F, it's not fully open or fully closed. It is fully open at about 195°F (and 180°F is the stock t-stat). What you see on the dash gauge is pretty much what's happening. I have verifyed it with a digital (fast response) thermocouple probe.
If you don't work the engine hard it just won't get very warm.
The crancase oil is also cooled by the coolant, so it too has an effect. The intake manifold is cooled/warmed by the coolant and if the ambient temp is cool, then the intake air will help cool the coolant too. When the turbo begins to produce boost, the temp of the compressed air will get hot. I have measured over 200°F when the boost is 8-9 psi.

A good complement to the thermostat would be a radiator shutter, controlled by a thermal switch.
If you ever take your deuce out on the highway and experience some long hills, you will notice big fluctuations in the temp. I have seen a drop of 40°F on one 5 mile downhill run. That's why a radiator cover is a good idea even in ambients up to about 65°F.

A note on the electric fan (ebay above), the amount of space between the hub and the radiator is like 2 inches. You'd be better off getting 4 ea smaller fans and mount them around the center.
Also, if these fas are used, make sure you upgrade to a 60 amp alternator, you'll need the power.

All these subjects have been covered in different threads over the last year or so, try a "search" for more info.....

 

[n1vbn]

Throw about a ton and a half of concrete block/bricks/rocks in the the cargo bed to give it some weight to pull against.

At forty below zero when I was running an 18 OTR I had to run a completely closed radiator cover to maintain 180 on the temp gauge at 65 MPH. As soon as I stopped for more than a couple of minutes the temp would fall right off gauge and keep falling. In order to warm it up fully you have to raise the idle speed (burn more fuel generates more heat) at least 50 rpm over normal idle speed. This will also prevent "slobber" from the exhaust. At -40 temps you should never just let the Diesel engine idle as it will never reach 180 without a higher than normal idle speed.

Last but not least check what kind of antifreeze mixture you have in the truck...too much antifreeze will also keep an engine from fully warming up. Make sure you have the proper 60 % antifreeze 40 % water mixture will protect you to -50 below and is spec for the Deuce.

When cooling system protection is required for temperatures down to -50 F (-47 C), prepare a 60% - 40% solution of MIL-A-46153 antifreeze and water (1 1/2 gallons of antifreeze to 1 gallon of water). Use a 60% - 40% mixture of antifreeze/water to top off or to refill a cooling system that requires the addition of coolant for any reason.