Missouri MV titling under attack and review

[RealCavDog]

So, I picked up my M35A3 from Ft. Riley, Kansas the last half of September, had went through all the normal insurance struggles, and drove her home to Joplin, Missouri with an overpriced but accurate insurance card in my wallet. Took her straight to the local Goodyear and had her safety inspected, then off to the Missouri Department of Revenue with my Arizona G.L. issued title, paid invoice showing sales tax paid in Kansas, which was higher than here, no problem, not that much, and a copy of my Personal Property tax reciept. Tagged it for 18,000 pounds for now until I scale it with my M105A2 and figure loaded weight, AND paid for beyond local plate, all overkill legal for now to avoid any issues in case of the worst happening, and only driving it unloaded till I upgrade plates.


A small hassle from the nice lady at the counter, as the Inspection form had the NSN number, minus the -01- , with the 6-digit serial number on the end. 17 digits that way, but title was issued in the State of Missouri with only the last 6-digits, as was the original Arizona title. Not a problem at all, had to give it a shot, and has nothing to do with the issue I will be addressing shortly.


SO, have been driving it fairly regularly to work, cruising around the country for photo ops, visiting with the occasional LEO and servicemen, put about 1000 miles on it including the recovery, all going well . . .and then the letter arrives on the same day that I learn my Mother has passed suddenly.




RE: 1999 AMGN IDENTIFICATION NUMBER 505XXX
LICENSE PLATE 12A3BC (fake # !)



Dear Mr Harrison,


The Department of Revenue, Motor Vehicle Bureau (MVB) recieved your request for Missouri original title for the above referenced unit.


The Motor Vehicle Bureau's primary responsibility is to properly title and license motor vehicles, trailers, boats, and outboard motors in the state of Missouri. This vehicle does not pass the highway patrol's specifications to run on the highway, therefore, the Department of Revenue does not title or license such units. The Certificate of Origin you submitted for the above referenced unit is being returned.


It is imperative that you return title number ABC12345 and license plate number 12A3BC to the MVB upon reciept of this letter.


If you paid any fees to the department, you may request a refund of title/processing fees paid by completing the attached Refund Request Application (FORM-426) and mailing it to the address above.


If you require additional information or assistance, please contact the Motor Vehicle Bureau at Post Office Box 100, Jefferson City, Missouri 65105-0100 or by telephone at (573)526-3669 between the hours of 7:30 a.m. and 5:00 p.m. Monday through Friday.


MOTOR VEHICLE BUREAU





Also included were my original G.L. paperwork and title, inspection certificate, a voided copy of my registration and all the paperwork my local office sent to the state BEFORE they sent me the new title and paperwork !


Several phone calls sent me ping-ponging between the MVB, "The Highway Patrol says your too wide", . . . local HP inspection and compliance station, "We heard they were considering this based on EPA reasons, but being ex-military, I know it can't be size related . . .here's the number to the State Chief, good luck", . . . to Jefferson City, where the Chief told me to hold tight and do nothing until someone got back to me, as there seemed to lots of confusion on the subject.


He also is ex-military, and knew the difference between a C model dropside, which mine is not, so only 96 inches wide, and was familiar with the 3116 Cat, so EPA requirements are not an issue.



Let the Bureucratic confusion and infringement begin. I believe my 1999 will be fine in the long run, but what about all you guys with the older trucks . . . . . . . . .

 

[gimpyrobb]

Sounds like you Sir, are in for a world of fun! I wish you the best in this. Please keep the thread updated.

 

[gerrykan]

I would guess the problem is the lack of a conforming 17 digit VIN for the model year.
It doesn't look good regardless.

 

[gerrykan]

I forgot to add,
It soumds like you will probably be traveling to Jeff City before this is over.
Arrive at 8:00AM, and be prepared to spend some time there.

 

[mistaken1]

Chances are good it is the issue of being a 1999 without a conforming VIN.

From here:
VIN Vehicle Identification Number History How To Read A VIN

9th Character

- The check digit "character or digit 9" in the sequence of a vehicle identification number (VIN) built beginning with model year 1981 (when the 17 character digit format was established) can best be described as identifying the VIN accuracy.
A check digit shall be part of each vin (since 1981) and shall appear in position
nine (9) of the VIN on the vehicle and on any transfer documents containing
the vin prepared by the manufacturer to be given to the first owner for purposes
other than resale. Thus, the vins of any two vehicles manufactured within a 30
year period shall not be identical. The check digit means a single number or letter
"x" used to verify the accuracy of the transcription of the vehicle identification
number.
After all other characters in the VIN have been determined by the manufacturer
the check digit is calculated by carrying out a mathematical computation
specified. This is based on vin position, sample vin, assigned value code,
weight factor and multiply assigned value times weight factors. The values are added and the total is divided by 11. The remainder is the check digit number.
The correct numeric remainder - zero through nine (0-9) will appear.
However, if the remainder is 10 the letter "X" is used to designate the check
digit value/number.

2005 CFR Title 49, Volume 6

Also keep in mind there is a certain group of people in this country who believe no one needs to own a large truck for fun. When they are in certain positions they use their position to enforce their beliefs on others (they may or may not have the law on their side when doing this).

Older trucks did not have 17 digit VINs nor were they required to. Plus in MO vehicles 25 years old or older qualify for historic plates (limited use but then again one can bypass the requirements newer vehicles are required to meet).

 

[AceHigh]

From another 1st Cav vet, I offer sincere condolences on the passing of your mom.

Keep going office to office, wear them down till you win! God bless.

 

[goodguyzy]

good luck with the battle, sounds like its going to be a long one.

 

[a1abdj]

So you are the guy I heard about on the phone the other day.

We have a similar story. I also have an A3 (two of them actually) that I am attempting to get titled and licensed. I purchased the trucks, got everything else I needed, and ran to the DMV who issued me a license plate.

Several weeks pass, and I get a letter from Jeff City saying that I need a VIN inspection from the Highway Patrol due to it not having 17 digits. I'm slightly pissed, because the Feds, their contractor, the state of Arizona, myself, and the Missouri licensed inspection station can't all be wrong. Either way, I drive it down to the Highway Patrol for a VIN inspection.

The guy who's going to look at it is apparently the ranking officer at the inspection station. He has no idea what he's looking at, and asks me to point out the VIN locations. I direct him to the number on the frame, as well as the number on the dash plate. He fills out his paperwork, gives me a copy to send to the state, and I'm on my way. He didn't spend more than 30 seconds looking at the truck.

Fast forward a few more weeks. I get another letter from Jeff City. This letter says in short:

This vehicle does not pass the Highway Patrol's specifications to run on the highway, therefore, the Department Of Revenue does not title or license such units.

They also sent me back all of my original paperwork.

At this point I'm flat out pissed. I call the number, give them my VIN number, and the nice lady who answered the phone looks up my situation. I want answers, and she has none. She can't tell me what specifications it doesn't meet, or how the Highway Patrol has come to that decision.

Here's where you come in. I tell her that there are many of these trucks currently licensed in the state, and all over the country for that matter. She attempts to find a similar vehicle by serial number and finds one other example. It must be yours, because she said that they had just recalled the title that they had issued.

She goes on to note a notation made at the bottom of my VIN inspection. Please take note that the only thing this form is supposed to do is verify the VIN. The inspector wrote "Military Vehicle - Not For Highway Use".

She tells me there's nothing they can do, and I have to take it up with the Highway Patrol. She gives me their number.

I get through their switchboard, and get an inspector from the Jeff City office. He's familiar with the trucks. We have a quick discussion. He brings up the federal safety law. I tell him they are exempt, and he admits that he knows that. He brings up the EPA regulations. I tell him that the truck is exempt based on the GVWR, and that the Cat motor would have met all of the requirments present during the year of manufacturer. He admits that he knows that as well.

He then states that "somebody" simply doesn't want military vehicles titled, and that they won't allow it. I ask him to point me to the law that says I can't license it, and he admits, none exists. He was very nice when I told him that I'll simply have to start going over people's heads.

I make a phone call to somebody I know who works for the state. This person has enough pull that they called the Chief Of Staff at the Highway Patrol, who then quickly called the guy in charge of the Jefferson City office. Within 30 minutes of my conversation with the inspector, that inspector was sitting in his boss's office with me on speaker phone.

I explained what I was trying to do to his boss. His boss was unfamiliar with these trucks, didn't know of any reason there would be a problem with the Highway Patrol, and doesn't know why the Department Of Revenue is mentioning them by name.

He assured me that he was going to personally look into it, and see what (if anything) can be done. I spoke with him on Monday, and he told me that he had yesterday off. I'm hoping to hear back from him today.

If not, I'll be calling my contact again tomorrow, and I'll see what other **** I can rain down upon the powers that be.

 

[Flyingvan911]

I had no problem with my 1970 A2 that I registered in November of 2010. The serial number was a combination of the registration number and the frame number. It came out to 17 digits by coincidence. I wonder if your short VIN threw up a flag and "upon further review" (as the NLF refs say) they discovered a problem.

When did you get this letter? I also wonder if the newer model makes a difference. Maybe a 1970 is old so they don't worry as much. I wonder if I will have a letter in the mail.

Anyone else in Missouri get a letter?

 

[Tanner]

I seem to recall hearing in years past that one of the reasons that people were shying away from M35A3's was partially due to newness of the trucks & titling issues from lack of 17-digit VIN?

I hope that you can come to a mutual agreement with the state on this, but I remind people that you have every right to purchase the truck, BUT no state is required to allow you to title & license the vehicle. Not looking to start a fight by any means, but the unfortunate thing is that licensing, titling, and registering a vehicle is a privilege, not a right.

You've got to maintain your cool in this; the first side to lose their cool loses the fight...

Good luck in your battle!

'Tanner'

 

[a1abdj]

I hope that you can come to a mutual agreement with the state on this, but I remind people that you have every right to purchase the truck, BUT no state is required to allow you to title & license the vehicle. Not looking to start a fight by any means, but the unfortunate thing is that licensing, titling, and registering a vehicle is a privilege, not a right.

There are laws on the book. These are rules that we all (including the state) must follow. If the law doesn't say that we can't license them, then they aren't any different than any other vehicle that they will license.

Missouri will license dune buggies, ATVs, golf carts, previously salvaged vehicles, and home built vehicles.

Since there is no law that anybody can point me to which prohibits me from licensing my military truck, they are going to license it. I have already gotten one politician involved, and I won't hesitate to call more. I'll sue the state if I need to.

They can't make up the rules as they go along.

 

[Tanner]

The rules - good ones and bad ones - are written by lawyers. Meaning that they leave lots of 'gray areas' open for interpretation. If someone in power along the way said 'no titling of ex-MV's due to non-compliance on safety/emissions, etc', then that is what you're up against.

Does said vehicle have a 17-didigt VIN? If that's what they are looking for AND require, then they have the ball in their court. Yes, you can sue the state... but they have deeper pockets, and dirty lawyers. They can drag you out forever, legally. Another unfortunate aspect. And a number of states are cracking down on the mantra of 'we'll title anything' - now home builts/dune buggies/ATV's/etc., are getting closer scrutiny.

Again - just because you can buy an MV doesn't mean that they have to allow you to title it. And the politicians do make up rules along the way - they obviously did so here, as you are in this unfortunate situation. Is this right for them to do so? I don't know... but they are in charge.

There are a few posts scattered in the SS forums dealing with issues in trying to title newer M35's > http://www.steelsoldiers.com/deuce/64881-m35a3-title-problems-georgia.html -- appears to be VIN/EPA issues related.

 

[mistaken1]

He then states that "somebody" simply doesn't want military vehicles titled, and that they won't allow it.

This seems to be a common theme across a number of states and fairly recent to boot. I believe it is coming from the very top and it has a lot to do with saving the planet and such.

I had once read of a bill introduced in congress to deny the sales of ALL military surplus to civilians and to to collect back all that had been sold in the past, the bill went nowhere but the article stated that bills like this are introduced every year.

Make no mistake there is a group of people who do not want American citizens owning any military surplus.

So when we start talking civilian ownership and use of resource guzzling, environment destroying military vehicles the fix is in (by hook or by crook it would seem).

 

[a1abdj]

The rules - good ones and bad ones - are written by lawyers.

That would be a good argument for them, if they could actually point me towards a written rule. Thus far, nobody from the DMV nor from the Highway Patrol knows about any written rule. They know about the rule, but can't seem to find it written down anywhere.

If someone in power along the way said 'no titling of ex-MV's due to non-compliance on safety/emissions, etc', then that is what you're up against.

That would also be a great argument for them, if they also required that of all of the other vehicles they title. They don't. You can license a home built vehicle that has not met any of those standards. So far, they're still loosing.

Does said vehicle have a 17-didigt VIN? If that's what they are looking for AND require, then they have the ball in their court.

They do not require a 17 digit VIN. They do require verification of a VIN if it is shorter than 17 digits. The state also can issue their own 17 digit VIN if it is required. They can't use any of this as an argument.

Yes, you can sue the state... but they have deeper pockets, and dirty lawyers.

None of which has to do with the law as written. This isn't a civil matter where you can play a bunch of games. The law is the law, as written, not as made up by somebody as they see fit. I'm confident I could win in short order, but I don't think there's any reason to go there.

And a number of states are cracking down on the mantra of 'we'll title anything' - now home builts/dune buggies/ATV's/etc., are getting closer scrutiny.

And when Missouri changes their laws, they can crack down on it too. Until then, the law is the law, and nobody can point me towards anything that would prohibit the licensing of military vehicles.

And the politicians do make up rules along the way - they obviously did so here, as you are in this unfortunate situation.

The politician that I spoke with is the one that got the guy in charge of the Missouri Highway Patrol to call the guy in charge of the Jefferson City office and had him call be back within 30 minutes of my original call.

If they are not following the rules, they have to answer to some politicians, which at this point, seem to be on my side. It certainly doesn't hurt to know people.

In addition, I have been thinking about calling somebody I know at one of the St. Louis area news stations. For as much news as there is regarding all of the tax issues and revenue shortages, they may be interested in a story like this. After all, I have no problem forming an out of state entity, licensing the vehicle there, and still driving it right here in Missouri. That would also save me all of those yearly licensing fees and personal property taxes. Of course I'm trying to be a good citizen, and do the right thing.

 

[mistaken1]

And the politicians do make up rules along the way - they obviously did so here, as you are in this unfortunate situation. Is this right for them to do so? I don't know... but they are in charge.

In charge? Really? Here I thought they represented us citizens and are beholden to the law as we are.

To say that politicians can make stuff up and we have to just live with it 'because they are in charge' is .... well, un-American. We need more people like a1abdj who will hold their feet to fire and fewer people who roll over and accept illegal behavior from politicians and bureaucrats.

 

[Flyingvan911]

I wonder how much help our state reps would be. We would want to show that we are responsible hobbyist who's vehicle are well maintained and not driven excessively, therefor having little impact to the environment around us.

I agree with Mistaken1. I wonder if someone found a backdoor way to start banning MV's. It is a shame that a few ilinformed people would do something like this. I wounder if a call to the highway patrol would do me any good. There's an office in Lees Summit.

Any suggestions? We do need to respond and be proactive. And remember first to keep a calm, clear head so we can put our best face forward.

 

[a1abdj]

I wonder how much help our state reps would be. We would want to show that we are responsible hobbyist who's vehicle are well maintained and not driven excessively, therefor having little impact to the environment around us.

I agree with Mistaken1. I wonder if someone found a backdoor way to start banning MV's. It is a shame that a few ilinformed people would do something like this. I wounder if a call to the highway patrol would do me any good. There's an office in Lees Summit.

Any suggestions? We do need to respond and be proactive. And remember first to keep a calm, clear head so we can put our best face forward.

It is a State Representative that I already have involved. Although I'm a bit testy about it here, I have been quite nice with everybody on the phone. The Highway Patrol, thus far, has been very professional. The gentleman I spoke with had no idea why the DMV would even bring up the name of his agency, as he wasn't aware of them making any decisions regarding what the DMV would license or not. This is why he is looking into it.

The problem was that the DMV was saying I needed to speak with the Highway Patrol, and the Highway Patrol was telling me I needed to talk to the DMV. I can't stand government ping pong, and knew a quick phone call could get some cages rattled.

If it is a DMV issue, they will have to answer for it. The person that I called is expecting answers from somebody, and I don't think anybody will be dropping the issue until there's a legal plate on the front of that truck. I actually still have the plate. They never asked for it back.

 

[Hoefler]

Man, now the MAN dont like A3's.

 

[Flyingvan911]

Thanks a1. Eventually, we may all have to start calling and writing. I may have outsmarted myself by not getting a historic plate. They don't have to renew and are therefor more unseen by the DMV.

I am going to call the highway patrol tomorrow. Maybe someone might have heard something. I also have a few questions. Mostly, is an MV driver likely to get pulled over if driving in MO with MO plates.

I also wonder if currently licensed MV's can renew. I am worried about this answer.

Edit: I'm going to hold off on my call to the HP. It seems like the short VIN is the telltale that's snitching on the A3's. I'll wait until we get more info. Seems like the DMV is the tadletail. I don't think Mo plates are an issue yet.

 

[a1abdj]

Although nobody has yet been able to point to any specific law or other binding rule, I still believe there is a way around it under the current law governing street rods and custom vehicles.

There may be others as well.