XM-211 Dump (first MV for me!)

[Tplane37]

Brake System

Okay, after researching this site, Google, and the TM's, I managed to figure out the plumbing for the hydraulic system side of the brakes. I found several pictures of the individual components and then the text identifying where the components were located. I took my 4 pages of notes back out to the barn and followed things around. This time, I remembered that this was a dump truck and lifted the bed up and set her down on the safety stop (which is thankfully present and solid!). The guy I bought this from told me that when he was bleeding the brakes, brake fluid leaked out of the lines like a sieve, and the master cyl. is empty... but I do not see any build-up of dirt, dust, or anything line that on any of the lines that one would typically associate with a hole or leak in a hydraulic line.

It would appear that my best option at this point is to waste some brake fluid. Like I said, the Master completely empty (but not dry, if that makes sense). As I mentioned in my last post, I am uncertain of which fluid to use in this truck (I am not asking for anyone's opinion on whether DOT 3/4 or DOT 5 is a better choice, what belongs in this truck). Without knowing (a) what brake fluid the City used in this truck when they were using it prior to 2007, (b) what brake fluid the seller put into the truck between 2007 and last weekend), and (c) what some knucklehead may have put in the system at any point in this truck's 60 years of existence.... with all that potential for a screw up, and since the Master Cyl. is currently empty, I think it is a good time to flush the system, but how?

In theory, I should be able to pull the rubber lines off of each wheel, put each of them into a bucket, fill the Master Cyl. up and pump away (engine off, e.g. "Manual Bleed") anything in Master Cyl, Air-to-Hyd. Cyl, Slave Cyl. and the lines, then hook the hoses back up and pump out the Wheel Cyl. But with what? If I use DOT 3/4 or DOT 5, and any residue of the other type remains in the system, I risk a chemical reaction creating more work and more money out the window.

Is there a non-petroleum-based fluid that is compatible with both DOT 3/4 and DOT 5 that will work to flush the hydraulic service brake system without damaging any components? Should I blow through the system with compressed air first (all the disconnects from above disconnected first) and will that be enough to remove enough residue to prevent that wonderful slime? And once more, what fluid is supposed to be in this truck? I presume DOT 5, but I do not know when DOT 5 became available to the military or civilians... I just know I have been running it in my 1964 Chevy Panel truck since 1999 after a complete brake system replacement.

 

[butch atkins]

Look on eBay ,TM 9-1827A it is the military manual for Bendix- Westinghouse brake systems.go to eBay ,search,type in TM 9-1827A,it is a314 pg manual on cd about 14.00 ,Good luck on your project.this is well worth the money.My original paper manual was almost 75.00 from eBay

 

[Gunner0311]

M211

Sweet MV find!

The "old style" duece cab cab is much more sexy than the M35 series.

 

[m1010plowboy]

Dems da brakes

Did you get the DOTS all sorted out? Tough guessing if someone switched to the higher temp toleratin' DOT5 but if I were a bettin' man, no one in their right mind changed to DOT5 with a brake system designed to stop 11 ton on DOT 3.

All the 'purging' info should show up in the attached link. The veteran mechanic that backed me up went with DOT3......not because it's right but because it was right for me....cheap.

The good thing about the internet is all that information, the bad thing about the internet is all that information. DOT3 / DOT5 info for those who care.

dot3 dot5 - Google Search

Super find, wish I had a dump truck that was green....or even yellow.

The pictures you posted....OH Ya man, you got it down....Thank you, keep er' comin!

 

[Tplane37]

Did you get the DOTS all sorted out?

Not yet. I have a 4 day weekend starting tomorrow. I got Tonka into the barn yesterday morning to start drying off. I am considering running DOT3 in it simply because, like you said, it's cheap. The only thing I have working to my favor right now is that there is not any fluid in it right now, and the only thing that would remain of any previous brake fluid would be what is puddled in any cavities or holding on to the 'walls' of any of the components or lines. Something else I found out is that the air tank on the passenger side is the one that belongs inside the passenger side frame rail. But there is also one inside the frame rail... so I actually have two matching air tanks on her. Just for kicks, I tried the horn after letting her idle for a bit, I barely got a whimper out of it . So the air system is the next step after the hydraulic system. I need to find out why there are two air tanks, if one is bad, which one and why/how, and if the air pump is working or not, etc.

I also see what could be a leak from the front pump of the transmission... there's ATF (pink, so not gear oil) slowly dripping from the inspection cover weep hole, usually not a good sign. It's about 2-3 drops per minute in neutral with the engine running after moving the truck about 1/8 mile in Low-Hilly (up the driveway), so I think I am going to just monitor it closely for now.

The more immediate issue is flushing out the hydraulic brakes. I have been told by a couple folks that you can flush the system with white vinegar ($3/gal.), then water, then air and if running DOT5 after the flush, drain the collected water from the low point in the system about once a week for a month or two until you no longer get water out of the system. I've never heard of putting vinegar in the brake system to flush it out, so I am a little leery... anyone here ACTUALLY tried this? What were your results?

My dad, on the other hand said that since the system is drained, just flush it out with whatever fluid you are going to use until the fluid comes out clean. (This would cost me about $30/gal. if going with DOT5, obviously less if going with DOT3) Some folks were born with a silver spoon in their mouth, my dad was born with a Snap-On wrench in his mouth... and he's usually right! But he has not worked on many military vehicles, and I can't exactly go down to the local parts store and pick up a rebuild kit for 12 wheel cylinders, a master cylinder, slave cylinder, and air to hydraulic cylinder, nor can I afford to on a shoe string budget. So any tricks from personal experience would be very helpful.

As for parts that I have found that I will be in need of soon, I need a suitable fuel tank (50+ gal. Does not have to be original), I may want to run dual tanks, in which case I will want a second stock PSI fuel pump since the switch I had laying around was an ON-OFF-ON type...would work for switching pumps/tanks. I need the transmission cover for inside the cab/floor pan (can see it missing in pictures). The cover in the floor pan that gives you access to the master cylinder is missing, so I need that. It would appear that the only working gauge in the truck is the engine temp, and it is aftermarket and less than a year old. Passenger seat cushions? Yeah, none existent, but have the folding frame (might be updating the seats to benefit my back, don't know yet). Passenger windshield, passenger door glass, rear cab glass, possibly the top section of the hard-top cab (I might be able to rebuild this when, but I can at least seal it off to get me through winter). I need to just remove all the lights on the sides and rear and put something else in there. The entire wiring harness is crap, but I don't necessarily need to stay with the water-tight sealed connections (at the moment, maybe later I will put the right stuff in it, but I can't even work with what I have).

I also have to rebuild the bed. I think I am going to just put down three full sheets of 1/8" steel over the dented up bed floor for structure and weld it in, then build drop sides for the be so pallets can be loaded easier... or just make it a flat bed for now (the front-top curves are in good shape, so I will not destroy things like that.) Also, the rear bumpers are not even there, and the service/emergency air lines are present at the rear, but capped off, don't know their condition yet.

On a positive note, she starts up like a dream still, in fact, she's starting easier now than when I loaded her on the trailer, she moves under her own power, and the dump bed works. I already have my money's worth. I figure get her road worthy and start making some cash, then I should have some cash put aside by spring/summer to reinvest in her. With any luck, I can come up with the cash to go grab AMGeneral's '52 (http://www.steelsoldiers.com/vehicles-sale/91403-1952-xm-211-loads-extra-parts.html) to enjoy while I fix Tonka RIGHT next summer! I already have the other half convinced I need another one, but she says I have to make Tonka pay for the additional trucks (she is the one that made the plural, I only asked for one more )

 

[hendersond]

I'd be rethinking the adding Vinegar/water part. It will collect in the lowest spot- the 12 wheel cylinders. Remember the bleeders are at the top of the cylinders. I would cracl the bleeders open and see what comes out 3 or 5. Add a couple drops of water into your catch container. 3 will absorb it, 5 will not. I'll bet on DOT 3.
I like your Dad's ideas flush it with what you are going to run.
Keep us posted!

 

[Tplane37]

hendersond, now there's something I didn't think of! I believe that will be my starting point tomorrow morning! And yeah, I was kinda leery about the vinegar bit... sure, it would likely clean out the old fluid, but I am more concerned with the damage it might cause in the process.

On an aside note, did you get my PM?

 

[hendersond]

Look a PM! I never notice those things. I'll get back to you.

 

[Tplane37]

DOT 3 or DOT 5?

And the winner is.....

DOT 3, by a land slide!

I had to open up three different bleeders to get any fluid (First one on the forward tandem, then the rear tandem, finally the right front steer), but I finally got some fluid out to test with. What I did get was clear and bright, and looked like fresh DOT 3, and no purple of bluish tint to it. Just to be sure, and curious too, I dribbled some tap water into the dish. The water did not bead up at all, and quickly disappeared into the fluid, I dibbled some more, same result. Then, just for kicks, I added roughly an equal amount of water to the brake fluid in the dish (e.g. 1:1) and let it sit. Low and behold, after exceeding the DOT 3's absorption potential, the water and brake fluid separated with the water on top of the fluid. DOT 5 would have floated on the water at this point, so it is definitely DOT 3 (my pocket book is happy about this). Now, off to the parts store to get a gallon (one for now).

What is the capacity of this system anyway? That is another figure I have not been able to locate on any data plate or chart in the TMs.

Thanks for the idea hendersond!

 

[m1010plowboy]

Brake fluid capacity

I can't find the Brake system volume. Thought I'd be smart and paste up a complete capacity chart but brakes are not on there. Thinkin' no one tried to figure it out. We didn't use more then 2 litres or half gallon.

Here is everything else that you are not looking for and don't need.

[FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT] [FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]CAPACITIES-All models[/FONT][FONT=&quot] (Imperial Measure / US Measure)
Fuel tank ……………………………………........463/4 gal. / 56 gal.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Cooling system……………………………………….....18 qt. / 22 qt.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Crankcase (refill)…………………………………….......9 qt. / 11 qt.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Air Cleaner………………………………………………...13/4 qt. / 2 qt.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Transmission (approx)…………………………………121/2 qt. / 16 qt.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Steering gear housing ……………………………….11/4 pt. / 11/2 pt.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Transfer:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]W/power-take off …………………………………...61/4 pt. / 71/2 pt.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]W/o power-take-off …………………………………51/2 pt. / 61/2 pt.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Differentials:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Front ………………………………………………….13 pt. / 151/2 pt.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Forward rear………………………………………..111/4 pt. / 131/2 pt.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Rear rear……………………………………………..91/2 pt. / 111/2 pt.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Winch:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Worm housing………………………………………….1 pt. / 11/4 pt.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]End bearing frame housing …………………………...3/4 pt. / 1 pt.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Hydraulic Hoist: (M215 & M216 CDN)[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Power hoist ………………………………………4.5 gal. / 51/2 gal.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]GENERAL DATA-(All Models)[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Engine:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Make……………………………………………………………….GMC[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Model………………………………………………………………..302[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Type…………………………………………………….... valve-in-head[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Number of cylinders…………………………………………………….6[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Cylinder bore………………………………………………………...4 in.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Piston stroke…………………………………………………………4 in.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Piston displacement…………………………………………301.6 cu. in.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Engine governed speed (no load)……………………………..3,600 rpm[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Engine governed speed (full load)…………………………….3,400 rpm[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Engine idling speed …………………………………………….375 rpm[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Crankshaft rotation (viewed from front end)………………….clockwise[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Firing order………………………………………………….1-S-3-6-2-4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Valve clearance (at operating temperature) -[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Intake valves ……………………………………………………0.012 in.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Exhaust valves ………………………………………………….0.020 in.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Wrench torque for cylinder head bolts ……………………75 to 80 lb-ft[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Horsepower Gross @ 3600 rpm……………………………………..150[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Horsepower Net @ 3400 rpm………………………………………..137[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Wheels:[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Rim size………………………………………………………..20 x 7.50[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Offset - models with single rear wheels ………………………….51/8 in.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Offset - models with dual rear wheels………………………….. 63/16 in.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Bolt circle diameter………………………………………8.755-8.745 in.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

[/FONT]

 

[Tplane37]

Thanks for the info Plowboy. It's good to know that I am not the only one who couldn't find the service brake fluid capacity. And I am right at 1/2 Gal. of fluid from an empty system.

I found two missing brake lines, now that I know where they all go and are. I currently have working brakes on both front wheels, the left wheel on the forward tandem and the right wheel on the rear tandem. The pictures below will explain why the other two wheels do not work yet.

At the "T" on the hub of both the right forward tandem and the left rear tandem, the brake line is broke off, and the line is also broke off at the bottom wheel cylinder on both hubs. I seem to recall reading that these are 3/8" steel brake lines, but what is the thread and length of these lines? (Should be standard thread for the line, and I could measure these out for the length too, but I want this thread filled with useable information as we go, plus I want to be sure.) The line fittings for both of these lines are still there, but they are pretty beat up, so it's going to be "fun" getting them out with the vise grips. It would appear that they are plugged off some how, because I don't see any fluid leaking from them. Also, on these two hubs, I could not bleed the upper wheel cylinders (nothing came out of the bleeders, but the bleeders do "work, e.g. I pulled them out and blew through them). Is this something I should be concerned with as well at this point? Or does the fact that the lower line is missing have something to do with the issue of getting fluid to the upper cylinders? (bearing in mind that nothing is leaking from the broken lines).

Also, just to satisfy my CDO (OCD in alphabetical order)... where can I get new bleeder screws for all 12 wheel cylinders so that I can put the same sized wrench/socket on all of them? This having to tote 3 different wrenches under the truck to bleed the wheel cylinders is for the birds, plus a couple bleeders are rounded off anyway and need replaced because of that.

UPDATE: Looks like one of the wheel cylinders in the right rear tandem is blown. Gotta tear into that one now too. Now that it actually has brake fluid in it, and time enough for the fluid to come out of the bottom of the drum, I get to go pick up wheel cylinders at $30 a piece... unless someone has some cheaper on hand that can also accept PayPal. Or possibly even the rebuild kits? (Assuming mine are rebuildable.)

 

[Tplane37]

Okay, here's a brief update on the progress.

Sam Winer Motors in Akron, Ohio has new wheel cylinders for $30 a piece and good 'take-offs' at $15 a piece. Personally, I would not go with the take-offs unless you are lucky enough to be able to swing by and look at them hands on. Some of the take-offs are better than others. I dug through the box and found a couple that look to be barely used, good springs, boots, shafts, ect. and barely any surface rust (in fact, I have seen new ones in the box for other modern trucks/cars that have more surface rust on them). Long and short, I picked some up at $15 a piece, but if you are going to order without being able to pick the take-offs out yourself, go for the new ones at $30 a piece. The link to their site is Sam Winer Motors Inc. or you can look at their most recent ad in the 'Rock and Dirt' here: http://samwinermotors.com/PDF/RockAndDirt.pdf. Sam Winer's has a fair amount of chassis, PTO, engine, transmission, and winch parts, but absolutely nothing for the M135/M211 series bodies, and a limited selection of items that are solely used on these trucks (the wheel cylinders are apparently used on a military trailer too, anyone know which one that is??)... but if you have a M34/M35 or a 5 Ton, need tires, shackles, pintles/lunettes, or winches, they have a large selection there.

I also called down to Memphis Equipment in Memphis, Tennessee in search of parts. They too have new wheel cylinders on hand and ready for shipping. They wanted $50 a piece for the wheel cylinders. I ordered a dozen bleeder screws from them at $1.62 a piece plus shipping. They have boot kits for the wheel cylinders too, but said that the rebuild kits with springs, shafts, pistons, cups, and boots are no longer available and they cannot find anyone who continues to make the kits. I would like to find a way to at least put together rebuild/partial rebuild kits for these cylinders, because $30-50 a piece for a dozen wheel cylinders can get expensive. I would at least like to know where I can get the proper springs, since I am pretty sure the rest of the stuff can be cleaned up in most cases and the boot kits are still available.

Sam Winer's was also looking to find some rebuild kits, they even said that they have one customer who is wanting to buy 10,000+ rebuild kits for resale purposes once they are available... so Sam Winer's is trying to find some to supply their vendors with as well.

For today, repairs on Tonka are being put on hold. I had a brake line blow on Tiny this morning while delivering a load of firewood from the auction, and our Suburban needs the heater core replaced... Tiny has to be fixed first, then the Suburban, then I can get back to Tonka, hopefully tomorrow morning if not later tonight. Just stopped in to post my progress and hopefully provide some information for others working on these MV's as to the 'latest' in the parts supply world. (Neither Sam Winer's nor Memphis Equipment have ANY M135/M211's in their yards...)

 

[hendersond]

(the wheel cylinders are apparently used on a military trailer too, anyone know which one that is??)..
QUOTE]

M105 trailer

 

[Tplane37]

The M105 ran 9.00X20 singles, right? Was there a 'sister' trailer that ran dual? Or tandems? (e.g. with the same tires, 6-lug wheels, and braking system as the M135/M211/M105)

 

[Danger Ranger]

I think the M105 did. Like he said above. You can dual one out by bolting another wheel on. They use the same wheels as the deuce I believe.

 

[Tplane37]

Another update.

After fixing the 11 feet of brake line on Tiny (had to be the longest line, with the most bends, on the truck), I pulled the Suburban in and started pulling the dash for the heater core replacement. Now don't get me wrong, I love my Silverado series trucks (both Tiny and the Suburban are 2000 "new body style" trucks), but after dealing with the brake line fiasco on Tiny, and now having to deal with this heater core issue.... I have a really strong urge to locate the engineers and put a wrench in their.... um, hand.

Now, after 250,000 miles Tiny has decided that her steering components require attention... ALL of her steering components (been dragging my feet on this one, biding time... but you can only bide so much before it becomes a safety issue). So I took a day off from the Suburban and got the Camaro put back together since we are parking Tiny until the Suburban and Tonka are on the road. The cost of repairs on Tiny at this point just exceeded my anticipated budget for getting Tonka road-worthy, and with 4 kids, we gotta have the Suburban. And no need to be concerned with my "luck" on this one, I expected Tiny to throw a tantrum when I decided to bring another truck home... She is the most jelous truck I have ever owned, but she's always been good to me and never left me stranded, she just has a unique personality you have to learn to love.

So the new game plan is to get the heater core finished up tomorrow and then get back to working on the brakes on Tonka. I did manage to get all of the drive shafts hooked back up before I pulled herout of the barn last weekend, so that is at least one thing I can check off of the ever-growing list of "To-Do's". But progress is progress, no matter how minute the progress may seem!

And don't worry, I am sure I can find something to take more pictures of this weekend while I am working and busting knuckles!

 

[Danger Ranger]

You just don't name a girl truck Tiny. It is not a wise choice on the owners behalf. lol.
Might be time to upgrade to a Ford...

 

[Tplane37]

You just don't name a girl truck Tiny. It is not a wise choice on the owners behalf. lol.
Might be time to upgrade to a Ford...

All of my trucks have been named by women...usually by a woman who forgot to look at the truck's rearend and count the holes.... One tailpipe= male, Two tailpipes= female..... Just like any other work horse on the farm!

As far as "upgrading to a F*rd" ... What did I ever do or say for you to cuss and use such foul language directed at me? That's just plain mean! LOL.

 

[marsman]

Rusty gold! She is going to look great all shined up!

 

[Tplane37]

Well, so much for working on Tonka this weekend The heater core in the Suburban turned out to be a bigger hassle than I originally imagined (and I figured it was going to be a PITA!). I finally got to the point of disconnecting the lines so I can pull the old core out, and low an behold, you gotta have a fancy tool for the 6 "quick disconnect" fittings (has rear heat/air), and the parts stores are now closed, so I am SOL until tomorrow. Here I thought that a Suburban had a fairly large interior, until it started filling up with all the pieces of the dash I had to pull out because some ingenious engineer thought it would be a good idea to make these heater cores "top load" and tuck them into the cowl under the windshield! Anyway, the disassembly is finished with the exception of two of the six heater hoses, I can't get any of my screwdrivers or picks in there to pull the 'T' off the core to slide it through the firewall, so off to borrow the fancy little piece of plastic to pull the 'T' (a.k.a. 99-04 GM Heater Hose Quick Disconnect Tool), then reassembly should go pretty quick and then back to work on Tonka, hopefully by Tuesday or Wednesday at this rate, by the weekend for sure!

If I have to keep working on these newer vehicles, I may just sell them all and buy a fleet of M211's... at lease there is room to work on them when needed... if only parts were as readily available. I do want to get into another K-5 in the near future, civilian or military... they're just fun to play with.