Legal Issues that could effect all MV Owners

[poppop]

Once again I agree with Dell. Let's not rock the boat until swiss gives the go ahead. Unfortunately dollars do matter in politics and its a shame but thats the way it is. As I stated earlier my Wife ran for State Office twice, Ga State Commissioner of Agriculture, and everywhere She went to ask for support the first words out of their mouths were how much money have you raised. They used that dollar figure to decide if She had enough backing for them to jump on board. When Swiss gets something written and ready to go to Committee then will be the time make those calls and write letters.

 

[swiss]

Good morning everyone, sorry for the being away this weekend. I was up on the Appalachian Trail all weekend with the Boy Scouts. Honestly I am exhausted and still cold

Okay a few points.

1.) Georgia’s law is actually correct per the federal code in not allowing newer vehicles to be registered as they do not meet FMVSS.
2.) Georgia’s law is not correct in the fact that vehicles 25 years or older do not have to meet FMVSS and the date is hard set to July 1[SUP]st[/SUP] 1986 versus being a moving date
3.) What Georgia’s law does not take into account is the fact that the Federal Code and NHTSA exempts military vehicles from FMVSS.

If you look at this issue from the big picture, this is not a Georgia problem but a national problem that like an iceberg the enormity of the problem lies beneath the surface where most people cannot see.

We are working to establish a fair and legal set of codes in the State of Georgia that take into account the Federal Code, NHTSA rulings and state requirements. Once this is completed we will have a template that can be used by other states to properly designate Historic Military Vehicles so that issues like this do not become widespread.

 

[swiss]

Good afternoon everyone,

A big thanks to the 4 members that contributed this weekend to the efforts. The total including $150.00 for the Tow Bar Auction would be $2538.90 for a total of 85% of goal.

Thank You everyone for your contributions, as we have seen all big and small add up to achieving our overall goals.

 

[3dAngus]

And once again, thanks to those special people who made a donation using my matching funds, for all donations at $10 or less. Every dollar counts. I must respect their privacy and cannot mention names. You know who you are. Thank you so very much!

Special thanks to Jesusgatos, who auctioned off a towbar for the fund. What a terrific guy and followup. This was a huge contribution to the fund and he deserves special recognition, as well as Adam who bid on top of his own bid to make it all worthwhile.

Finally, thanks to Swiss, who is working so hard, and smart enough to stay out of the controversy and remain neutral to any or all objections. All the while, providing us with true transparency as to what is happening and what is being done with your contributions. Swiss, you would make a fine member of our House of Representatives. You certainly have all the right tools. Thanks again for all you do!

 

[zout]

Before anyone gets hysterical this is the FEDERAL CODE OF REGULATION - but BEFORE you read this go back and read post #320 and then post #321.

It is left to each individual State to correct and change per their requirements and needs. Do you see the difference ?
ANY State can change their code during legislation when no one is watching or paying attention - Some States are extremely vague on their interpretations and are not written in stone (Law).

Once this is tackled and changed in GA your more than welcome to take up any battle you wish - but lets get this one done first.
Here is that Federal Code:

e-CFR Data is current as of January 16, 2014

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Title 49: Transportation
PART 571—FEDERAL MOTOR VEHICLE SAFETY STANDARDS
Subpart A—General
[HR][/HR] [h=2]§571.7 Applicability.[/h](a) General. Except as provided in paragraphs (c) and (d) of this section, each standard set forth in subpart B of this part applies according to its terms to all motor vehicles or items of motor vehicle equipment the manufacture of which is completed on or after the effective date of the standard.
(b) [Reserved]
(c) Military vehicles. No standard applies to a vehicle or item of equipment manufactured for, and sold directly to, the Armed Forces of the United States in conformity with contractual specifications.
(d) Export. No standard applies to a vehicle or item of equipment in the circumstances provided in section 108(b)(5) of the Act (15 U.S.C. 1397 (b)(5)).
(e) Combining new and used components. When a new cab is used in the assembly of a truck, the truck will be considered newly manufactured for purposes of paragraph (a) of this section, the application of the requirements of this chapter, and the Act, unless the engine, transmission, and drive axle(s) (as a minimum) of the assembled vehicle are not new, and at least two of these components were taken from the same vehicle.
(f) Combining new and used components in trailer manufacture. When new materials are used in the assembly of a trailer, the trailer will be considered newly manufactured for purposes of paragraph (a) of this section, the application of the requirements of this chapter, and the Act, unless, at a minimum, the trailer running gear assembly (axle(s), wheels, braking and suspension) is not new, and was taken from an existing trailer—
(1) Whose identity is continued in the reassembled vehicle with respect to the Vehicle Identification Number; and
(2) That is owned or leased by the user of the reassembled vehicle.
[33 FR 19703, Dec. 25, 1968. Redesignated at 35 FR 5118, Mar. 26, 1970, and amended at 36 FR 7855, Apr. 27, 1971; 38 FR 12808, May 16, 1973; 40 FR 49341, Oct. 22, 1975; 41 FR 27074, July 1, 1976]

 

[swiss]

I have to apologize to everyone,

The brain can be a funny thing, I have looked at this stuff for so long but yet every time I type I keep typing July 1st 1986 as key cut off date. I was re-reading some of Zouts posts and BAM I see 1985 and I had to stop and go back and look up the law again, then the MV documents. For some reason the Motor Vehicle Title documents date of 1986 has been stuck in my head and I have been putting in the wrong year.

I am sorry for any confusion and now I have a ton of posts to correct

Why did somebody not correct me???

Don't worry the stuff I sent to the legislation is correct

 

[zout]

I saw it - I was just sitting on the sideline waiting to see if anyone else caught it.

I knew you would finally correct it anyone as precise as you are and that is a GOOD thing Bro. But in reality that is how close you have to read this data and nit pick at it - you could read something else just as important and really not let it sink in.

Just like the DOD Manuals that state: Ground Wheeled Vehicles are designed for highway use and CAPABLE of off road use - not vice versa.
Anyhow - your back on track my friend and up to speed as always.

 

[zout]

Thanks to Warthog who requested to have on file for review all the files researched so Swiss could do his thing - as soon as Warthog gets over his shock and awe of what came at him this morning - hopefully he can explain as an member what had to go into this just to find this data - research it and make sense of it all for Swiss to get this done for us.

 

[zout]

Donations to help change the law can be made via PayPay to e-mail : galegislation@gmail.com

Link to the details of the changes
http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthr...=1#post1481638

Click Here to Donate, use the galegislation@gmail.com
https://www.paypal.com/us/webapps/mpp/send-money-online

 

[zout]

Hey Swiss - can we all get a total - need to know if I need to put on my dress and go hooking on the street corner here in Lilburn tonight to raise some more funds.

 

[swiss]

Hey Swiss - can we all get a total - need to know if I need to put on my dress and go hooking on the street corner here in Lilburn tonight to raise some more funds.

Ouchy I am sorry but that would not be pretty

Total today is $2538.90, (same as yesterday) I think we should have some checks at the house but I will not know until tonight as a few members were going to send checks. I will post a new total tonight if we get some checks in.

This amount was raised by 41 members contributing. THANK YOU GUYS! I hope to have a recognition ceremony at the GA Rally for all of you this fall.

 

[zout]

Please help friends - make Del still dip into his pockets with the donations of $10 or less he will match - two $10 or 4 $5 donations - lets see if we can make him say UNCLE.
We're nearly there and I really do not want to stand on the street (I hate that color dress anyhow) and bailing myself out of jail could be used for me to donate the remainder missing needed for the lobbyist.

You know you want to - you know you should - you know you have that spare chump change laying around someone (one less pack of smokes for a day) clean the couch out or that lazy boy - toss it in the pile and it will add up. One less gallon of gas so you can call in at the end of the week so you can take the day off because you cannot make it into work (blame me that always works). Donate just because I might have made you smile. Please help.

I have a good challenge for you - would you donate .1 penny for every page I had to read to get this all in motion - if you will, I can tell you WHO to PM and he can count the pages. You will get out of donating no less than $50.00.

 

[swiss]

Legal Lesson 101: Good intentions do not always mean properly executed!

The more I read this law, the more obvious it is laws get passed that are wrong but with good intentions. Let’s dissect the law

GA Law

(a) No application shall be accepted and no certificate of registration shall be issued to any motor vehicle which was not manufactured to comply with applicable federal emission standards issued pursuant to 42 U.S.C.A. Section 7401 through Section 7642, known as the Clean Air Act, as amended, and applicable federal motor vehicle safety standards issued pursuant to 49 U.S.C.A. Section 30101, et seq., unless and until the United States Customs Service or the United States Department of Transportation has certified that the motor vehicle complies with such applicable federal standards and unless all documents required by the commissioner for processing an application for a certificate of registration or title are printed and filled out in the English language or are accompanied by an English translation.

(b) The provisions of subsection (a) of this Code section shall only apply to applications for certificates of registration for such motor vehicles first registered in Georgia after July 1, 1985. Certification of compliance shall only be required at the time of application for the issuance of the initial Georgia certificate of registration.

Comments

1.) The law is trying to lay the ground work for vehicles both domestic and import that do not meet the FMVSS, okay we get that. Georgia is actually trying to do the right thing by putting this law in place but messed up the implementation.

2.)Now look at section (b) below: This says that this section only applies to applications for registration on any vehicle that was first registered in Georgia after July 1[SUP]st[/SUP] 1985. Key word here is first registered. Unless you registered your vehicle prior to July 1[SUP]st[/SUP] 1985 in Georgia you are subject to this provision. What they were trying to do was deal with older vehicles that are exempt from FMVSS (Older than 25 years old) but totally messed up the law as it is written.

a.The provisions of subsection (a) of this Code section shall only apply to applications for certificates of registration for such motor vehicles first registered in Georgia after July 1, 1985

3.)In addition the law is very vague, so what does the following really mean? Does it mean that if a Georgia registration already exists then you are good to go? Or does it mean that each time a new certificate is requested then certification is required? I understand the word “Initial” but this language can be interpreted many ways and in some ways is a contrition to itself.

a.Certification of compliance shall only be required at the time of application for the issuance of the initial Georgia certificate of registration

Nice Brain Twister here

 

[zout]

 

[3dAngus]

Don't overthink. Just DO.
You'll sleep better.

 

[swiss]

I just found the legal defense for Georgia members with vehicles newer than July 1st 1985 that could be used if you already have a Georgia registration.

Follow along.

Legal Lesson 101: Good intentions do not always mean properly executed!


3.)In addition the law is very vague, so what does the following really mean? Does it mean that if a Georgia registration already exists then you are good to go? Or does it mean that each time a new certificate is requested then certification is required? I understand the word “Initial” but this language can be interpreted many ways and in some ways is a contrition to itself.

a.Certification of compliance shall only be required at the time of application for the issuance of the initial Georgia certificate of registration

The argument by your lawyer shall be as follows:
1.) If a certificate of registration was issued in the state of Georgia it must have meant that at the time the Certificate of Compliance was already presented.

I think that would be about a $5,000 legal case but you could do better or worse.

Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer and this is not legal advice but makes good sense to me, please check with legal counsel for legal advice.

 

[zout]

Trying hard to take this as an outsider - non MV owner an etc.

I would think this thread it pretty much dead.
Those that donated did
Those that are not are never going to
Those that own newer trucks and have titles are just going to ride it out
Those that have built bobbers - crewcabs and have fabbed the OEM chassis are just - whatever ya wanna call whatever they are doing.
Those that care did
Those that care are not going to unless it effects them

I have no doubt this Draft is going to change into a Bill and that Bill will get passed.

From what I have seen there is a small group here that gets it and have participated and many thanks to you.
If I can sell the M909 I will finish off contributions to the lobbyist so they can get funded for their efforts - time - labor or whatever you want to call it.

After that !
And after this I have no more input.

 

[papabear]

Legal Lesson 101: Good intentions do not always mean properly executed!
The more I read this law, the more obvious it is laws get passed that are wrong but with good intentions. Let’s dissect the law
GA Law

(a) No application shall be accepted and no certificate of registration shall be issued to any motor vehicle which was not manufactured to comply with applicable federal emission standards issued pursuant to 42 U.S.C.A. Section 7401 through Section 7642, known as the Clean Air Act, as amended, and applicable federal motor vehicle safety standards issued pursuant to 49 U.S.C.A. Section 30101, et seq., unless and until the United States Customs Service or the United States Department of Transportation has certified that the motor vehicle complies with such applicable federal standards and unless all documents required by the commissioner for processing an application for a certificate of registration or title are printed and filled out in the English language or are accompanied by an English translation.

(b) The provisions of subsection (a) of this Code section shall only apply to applications for certificates of registration for such motor vehicles first registered in Georgia after July 1, 1985. Certification of compliance shall only be required at the time of application for the issuance of the initial Georgia certificate of registration.

Comments

1.) The law is trying to lay the ground work for vehicles both domestic and import that do not meet the FMVSS, okay we get that. Georgia is actually trying to do the right thing by putting this law in place but messed up the implementation.

2.)Now look at section (b) below: This says that this section only applies to applications for registration on any vehicle that was first registered in Georgia after July 1[SUP]st[/SUP] 1985. Key word here is first registered. Unless you registered your vehicle prior to July 1[SUP]st[/SUP] 1985 in Georgia you are subject to this provision. What they were trying to do was deal with older vehicles that are exempt from FMVSS (Older than 25 years old) but totally messed up the law as it is written.

a.The provisions of subsection (a) of this Code section shall only apply to applications for certificates of registration for such motor vehicles first registered in Georgia after July 1, 1985

3.)In addition the law is very vague, so what does the following really mean? Does it mean that if a Georgia registration already exists then you are good to go? Or does it mean that each time a new certificate is requested then certification is required? I understand the word “Initial” but this language can be interpreted many ways and in some ways is a contrition to itself.

a.Certification of compliance shall only be required at the time of application for the issuance of the initial Georgia certificate of registration

Nice Brain Twister here

Brother we've been down similar roads many times in the Towing and Recovery Association of Georgia (TRAG), trying to get legislation passed or get restrictions/rules eased. It's not easy, usually involves only the strongest of heart/will, and generally is not supported/appreciated by those who just ride on the coat tails of the movers and shakers.

You are correct in getting a lobbyist. Without one we would have little hope of getting anywhere, that's just how it is.

Having said all that, we may not prevail this first time due to the short legislative session but I think we will.

The next time you're at the hootch I'll buy you a beer or 12 and then tow ya home!

 

[3dAngus]

No need to sell the M909 and give more off of it.

I'll make sure Swiss has the balance of what he needs up to the $3000 when he is ready to call it.

I cannot say I understand it all, but I can say there are people out there a whole lot smarter than me, and sometimes you just want to support their effort as best you can without interference, complications, controversy, or question.
Now that's confidence in your fellow man. Rare, good luck with it!

 

[mtullis]

Ouchy I am sorry but that would not be pretty

Total today is $2538.90, (same as yesterday) I think we should have some checks at the house but I will not know until tonight as a few members were going to send checks. I will post a new total tonight if we get some checks in.

This amount was raised by 41 members contributing. THANK YOU GUYS! I hope to have a recognition ceremony at the GA Rally for all of you this fall.

Just sent $21.10 to make it a even amount.