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Modern gen end on an 003?

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I was looking around for meters for an 002 and came across a company in Georgia selling generator parts. Not surplus MEP parts but commercial stuff. If you go onto this companies website, Central Georgia Generator and go to their customer page it looks like a few people have adapted modern generator ends to their MEP 003a's or at least used the 003's engine.
Have any of you guys ever seen something like this before? Looks like the 002 & 003 have an SAE #4 housing. I callled down there and spoke to a fella Mr Osbourne and he told me that he had worked with a customer for a few months to get everything together. Might this be an alternative if the 002 & 003 parts really get outragously expensive or hard to get?
I'm thinking that if you have a good engine, that will probably outlive most of us why not adapt it to a modern end? You could do away with some obsolete or hard to get parts. From what I've been reading the modern gen ends have automatic voltage controllers built in them. Any thoughts?
 

Isaac-1

Well-known member
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There really is not much to go wrong in the MEP-002a and MEP-003a generator end, and they are modern brushless designs. The voltage regulation system is a bit esoteric, but other than the AVR board where we now have an aftermarket alternative, most of the rest of the AVR circuit is fairly robust. As I see it most of the hard to find parts are going to be engine related so this really does not buy you much unless you are one of the few with a bad generator end.
 

tim292stro

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I'm planning on a generator head from them for my PTO generator, from my discussions with them, they come across as stand-up guys. They also Sell on e-place.

There isn't much to an AC generator no matter what the source - here's the crash course.

Power input: Engine can be gas, diesel, turbine, wind, water, a treadmill with a hamster...
Generator head: Either brushless or brushed, there is a stator and a rotor (the difference is how the power gets transferred to the rotor). The control coil induces the current in the output coil, rotation and pole count imparts a frequency. Many heads are multi-winding ready (the CGG heads are) supporting single and three-phase of several topologies (Zig-Zag, Star, Delta).
Voltage regulator: Either manual (not great) or automatic, the regulator looks at the voltage of the output and adjusts the current to the control field of the generator to adjust the output current. Generator heads are current sources - meaning, they will drop to the voltage that the power of the output support for the current being demanded. Watts = Volts * Amps. 1000 Watts / 20 Amps = 50 Volts & 1000 Watts / 30 Amps = 33.3 Volts. This is why fast (and usually automatic) voltage regulation is critical on dynamic loads - manual regulation is rare these days.
Speed regulator (governor): Input speed directly affects the output frequency. For variable power sources (Engines, turbines, etc...) the changing loads may cause the power source to change speed, thus altering the output frequency. On lower loads, the governor will reduce the throttle as needed, and on higher loads will increase the throttle - ideally holding the revs steady.

Everything else in the generator is merely support for the above functions.

As long as you can get rotation into a generator head of sufficient power and revs, you can use any generator head that functions (keeping in mind the power demands of the loads - i.e. don't go putting a 5kW head on a 10kW generator and expect it to output 10kW - that's just crazy). You can swap a voltage regulator 1:1 as long as the regulator supports both the voltage and current ranges of the output and control coils (respectively). The engine governor can simply be a vane-actuated-lever balance on a shaft fan (like the smaller mechanical ones), or a pulse counting electronic one that gives a current output to a throttle actuator (like the newer/larger ones) - or if you have steady state loads, a simple set-screw.


For a 002 you should be able to adapt any e-place 7-10HP diesel. For an 003, you need between 13-15HP - I see twin cylinder 22HP diesel on e-place. Both engines mentioned here are glow-plug + electric start (12V), and air cooled.


Just a thought - since generator-heads/automotive-alternators are current sources (and we use them with voltage regulators), you can use a bus or truck alternator to create 28.8V (24V) power (this makes it an APU really) then run a 24V inverter to give you your AC power - 28.8V alternators are available up to 900Amps (26kW - from the M1 Abrams tank). Use the alternator to charge batteries while the inverter load is low, and voilà, you have a UPS. Since this is working in DC after the alternator's rectifier, the frequency and thus the engine revs, don't matter as much as the power output of the engine. This means you can run the engine at the lowest possible speed for the required power (saving fuel). By sizing your engine+alternator and your batteries+inverter correctly, you can reduce the size of everything - AC generator sets are designed to run the max power plus a margin, a DC generator/inverter set can be sized to the average load, and use batteries to help with peak loads (recharging with no or low loads) - which will save the fuel that's used by quickly adjusting the engine power to a surge load. This is how hybrid cars get their fuel economy.
 
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Harleyd315

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Metalworker, I have worked with Mr Osborne and as you said they are great people to deal with. I have built 3 gens now with his parts. I'm in NJ 07834 so if you want to take a ride for a demo come on up.
 

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Hello and how is everyone today. Harley I'd like to take a look at that setup. It looks like you did a nice job on that. That would be a perfect conversion for a 400 hz unit. Right now I'm pretty buisy at work but in a few weeks i'll give you a shout. Take it easy metalworker393
 

steelypip

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Just a thought - since generator-heads/automotive-alternators are current sources (and we use them with voltage regulators), you can use a bus or truck alternator to create 28.8V (24V) power (this makes it an APU really) then run a 24V inverter to give you your AC power - 28.8V alternators are available up to 900Amps (26kW - from the M1 Abrams tank). Use the alternator to charge batteries while the inverter load is low, and voilà, you have a UPS. Since this is working in DC after the alternator's rectifier, the frequency and thus the engine revs, don't matter as much as the power output of the engine. This means you can run the engine at the lowest possible speed for the required power (saving fuel). By sizing your engine+alternator and your batteries+inverter correctly, you can reduce the size of everything - AC generator sets are designed to run the max power plus a margin, a DC generator/inverter set can be sized to the average load, and use batteries to help with peak loads (recharging with no or low loads) - which will save the fuel that's used by quickly adjusting the engine power to a surge load. This is how hybrid cars get their fuel economy.
Well, kinda. There's one secret sauce you're missing if you go this route: a permanent-magnet generator head. The hardcore wind turbine people and a few others are using PMGs, but I haven't seen any on any non-hybrid vehicle.

The difference in efficiency is enormous - a standard claw-pole generator is 40-60% efficient, a PMG is 90+ % efficient, thanks to not needing energy to generate a field. The hybrid cars also use their PMGs as drive (and starter) motors, so get the efficiency gain on both sides of the equation.

The downside to a PMG head is that you have to do some clever voltage conversion or sinking to keep the efficiency high - the optimum efficiency curve for the generator has a rising voltage as power output (proportional to shaft RPM) increases, which means you have to design the power management system to handle variable input voltages - loads of fun if you need a constant output voltage somewhere. The Toyota hybrid design, at least, gets around this by bucking one motor-generator against the other to eat some amperes if the battery pack can't suck up excess power fast enough for some reason.

But yes, the dual PM motor/generator system does make an excellent continuously variable transmission, which optimizes engine efficiency as well as being a handy way to convert kinetic energy into electrical energy when you press on the brake pedal.

If you were to raid a wrecked Prius for its transmission and mount MG2 to the back of an MEP-003A you might have a very interesting beast. As I've said, you'd have to figure out how to use the variable voltage and frequency AC effectively, but there are power electronics capable of this - the Prius comes with them. The PMG is also the secret sauce for quietness and high efficiency in the Honda EU generator line, btw.
 

tim292stro

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We can go down the exotic rabbit hole if we want, but we gotta go all the way... :naner:


Well, kinda. There's one secret sauce you're missing if you go this route: a permanent-magnet generator head. The hardcore wind turbine people and a few others are using PMGs, but I haven't seen any on any non-hybrid vehicle.
I agree it's rare, but these guys have been doing it for the better part of 30 years. If you have the cash, and are starting from scratch on a complete system, you might want to check these guys out. If you're improvising in a pinch and don't have any wrecked Priuses handy (along with a PCB fab, electronic parts supply house, and a ton of electronics experience), you can stick to the simple Rotor/Stator alternator approach.


The difference in efficiency is enormous - a standard claw-pole generator is 40-60% efficient, a PMG is 90+ % efficient, thanks to not needing energy to generate a field. The hybrid cars also use their PMGs as drive (and starter) motors, so get the efficiency gain on both sides of the equation.
Permanent magnet alternators are more efficient at the point of generation, but automotive alternators have rectification built-in while PMG's used in Hybrid cars don't - you lose some of that efficiency again with the external controls that are required to make use of the power. This is another area where gains are possible for both Brushless-rotor and PMG type of generator heads. Automotive alternators use 6-diodes to form a three-phase rectifier, this changes the three-phase alternator voltage into rippling DC voltage. PMG heads used in hybrid vehicles are driven by variable voltage and frequency drives and synchronous rectification (active, not passive rectification).


As an exercise in the difference between Passive and Active rectification:

Let's assume a hypothetical 100Amp 28.8Volt alternator. I'm not going to go into the complicated AC math and work in individual component variations and margins - let's keep this only mostly confusing, not entirely confusing :???:.

Passive (your "off-the-shelf" alternator):
A diode has a voltage drop of between 0.3volts and 0.7volts (depends on the chemical make-up). In order for the alternator to pass 100Amps, that diode is "consuming" 100Amps * 0.3Volts = 30Watts. Two diodes are required to make a complete circuit, so you are actually losing ~60Watts per phase on that alternator (180Watts total) just for the service of changing AC to DC power - and this is if you have the most expensive and exotic diodes. If we assume this was a 28.8Volt alternator, that's a 6.25% loss right at the back of the alternator.

Active: Changing to synchronous rectification, MOSFETS or IGBT are used in the place of diodes and driven by very low power circuitry, and this can lead to a significant reduction in power consumption. MOSFETs for example instead of having a given voltage drop, have a given resistance. If we replaced that 100Amp diode that has a 0.3Volt drop with a 1kW MOSFET that has a 0.0023Ohm R[SUB]dsON[/SUB], then put 4 in parallel to get the power rating (28.8V * 100Amps = 2.88kW, okay so the engineer in me added some margin, in parallel the math is: 1/(1/resistance)+...n...+(1/resistance)), the total resistance across the MOSFET array when it is "ON" is only 0.00575Ohms. The voltage that would be "consumed" is only 100Amps * 0.000575Ohms = 0.0575Volts, and that works out to 100Amps * 0.0575Volts = 5.75Watts (11.5Watts per phase, 34.5Watts total) which works out to only a 1.2% loss due to rectification. The control circuitry is less than 1Watt total so I'm omitting it from this for simplicity (only a ~4% error).

That's a 145Watt difference, a 5% difference in output efficiency (take that 70% efficient alternator and now it's 75% efficient, 80% goes to 85% - again, an over-simplification). This was also just assuming we addressed the Stator coil (output), there is more to be gained in the Rotor too. If you use a self-exciting alternator (one-wire), you get the power to control the rotor's variable current from the small PMG in the alternator, so you get a little bit more total efficiency - it is possible to sneak it up to nearly 90% and not have to build your own voltage regulator.


I'm not suggesting that everyone go out and change their stuff (it's ain't broke, so don't kill yourself trying to fix it), but for people who are not electro-phobes and have the time and patience to learn, there is a ton of efficiency that can be gained with off-the shelf active rectification stuff that's becoming available. If you want to go really crazy, you can tear down an alternator and replace the rotor and stator with a higher cobalt content magnet steel, and you can liquid cool the stator and rotor to avoid flirting with the Currie Temperature. In general: cold makes better magnets and better conductors (coils), hot makes worse magnets and makes conductors (coils) more resistive (harder to pass power through).
 
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Okay, i was just kinda looking to see if anyone had done something similar to an 003 or 002 as harleyd315 did. To be honest this post went far beyond what I was looking for. Anyway, everybody have a nice day and don't forget we have the Daytona 500 today.
 
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