MEP 003a Question

[dkpaintball]

This house is not the kind of house that just gets inspected. or ever for that matter. lol. All hand built. Im aware that the mep003a takes about 1 GPH, but unless there is another way to provide power i dont see any other options. when work has to be done it has to be done. To bring power to this house would cost ridiculous amounts of money. to get an electrician to come here would also cost alot because of how far it is also. And as many of you know im sure, farmers dont always make a lot of money. I Have a pretty good grasp on electrical safety, i just was hoping someone would have had a similar setup that i could reference.

 

[tim292stro]

There's just the liability issue to deal with - if someone give you advice here and you do something (either intentionally or not) that hurts someone - their attorney could find this thread and try to tie anyone who posted here to a lawsuit.

You still need permits, I see from your signature that you're in Sacramento, CA - we are under NEC 2011, and California Residential Building Code 2013, and there are some specific things about off-grid and renewable energy in those that you have to comply with. If you're not going to get and electrician, and not going to have it inspected - you're on your own for liability.

Legally, I would assume (can't speak for them) that Steel Soldiers as a website does not condone non-permitted electrical work, or intentionally dodging local building inspectors (never underestimate the willingness of a "tax man" to go get ya').

If this is not an occupied dwelling, why not keep everything temporary? Keep the generator, light string, and temporary power cables (extension cords) in the same shed and pull them out when you need them. I see your username is "dkpaintball" - is this for an outdoor paintball "base"? If that's the case, you may be way overthinking this project (but you still need permits for structures!!)...

 

[Isaac-1]

Tim292stro, I think you may have spent too much time on the left coast, while electrical inspectors are getting more common throughout the U.S. there are still many areas where there is no code enforcement. In Louisiana where I live it is still very spotty outside of the city limits, and I suspect it is that way in lots of other places. Here we are on the road to state wide mandatory electrical inspection, but from a practical point it is likely still a ways away. (the state legislature passed a bill to mandate it about 5 years ago, but so far has failed to fund the bill so there are no inspectors if the local government does not pay for them, which means they only exist in the cities, and some of the higher population unincorporated suburbs around the larger cities.

dkpaintball, even if not an electrician, a second set of eyes by someone handy around electricity would be good

 

[dkpaintball]

I am from near sac. but the house is in the most barren part of california imaginable. it is unincorporated, and the nearest town is deserted. literally. I would be very interested in running everything from extension cords but I doubt that i would be able to pull the loads i need from the two convenience outlets. I can get by with a 120 system i dont really need the 240, i have a separate generator stricly for the well pump which is 240. This is not for a paintball field though Because of the remoteness, when it is time to harvest I hire people to help with the work. It has to be done in a timely matter or else I wont be able to afford to pay people to help harvest. How hard can it really be to connect 4 wires though?

 

[steelandcanvas]

Not hard at all if you understand what you're doing, and the consequences involved.

 

[steelypip]

You can use SO cord in combination with 'distribution boxes' to create a temporary wiring system connected to the generator's main output lugs. You'll want to ground the generator frame and leave the neutral bonded to the generator frame. In this sort of 'temporary installation,' you're actually doing exactly what the army expected to do with the set, so the army TMs are an excellent place to look.

You will, however, have to observe the current limits of the sockets in your distribution boxes. If you have something that draws a lot of power, it likely will need, something like a NEMA 5-20, 5-30, or even four-pole or twist lock connectors appropriate to the power draw and use you expect.

Appropriate weatherproofing is also necessary - they do make distribution boxes for wet environments if need be.

 

[Isaac-1]

Why not consider a MEP-002a or do you have some larger loads than typical house

 

[tim292stro]

I totally agree with steelypip on this, but I'd recommend SOOW cable if it's going to be outside. You can use spider boxes as power distribution if you're worried about the individual circuit loads. Temporary power systems get a lot of leeway, and are less heavily regulated. If you're not using 240V appliances, you might also consider the 208Y/120V output (three-phase) as you will get better efficiency out of the generator head, and you can use slightly smaller conductors (since there are more wires). You just need to make sure you keep your loads balanced

In fact I looked it up, and if you decide to put in a permanent power generator (classified as "stationary power") you will need to even meet CARB emissions for an installation after 2009. This will make the fines go up and up...


I know about rural California dwellings, my parents have a cabin in the woods - but the county auditor, BLM, CalFire, and in their case the National Parks Rangers will still drop by every once in a while.

 

[Chrispyny]

Ok. This thread is important to me as I just won an auction for my 002 and will be picking it up Wednesday.

This post is regarding MY set up only. This post is not to be used for EVERYONES wiring. Please consult your electrician for further questions.

So I have some comments to make and additionally some questions.
We all know that a houses multi neutral ground should only be attached to the home panel box in ONE place in a simple residential application like mine. Above is a picture of my 3 month old Square D QO, 150 amp, 30 space electrical panel that my electrician brother in law installed for me.
Several things to point out.
Orange arrow points to 30 amp romex and breaker which will be moved to the upper right most spot and an interlock kit installed once I get the generator and get it running. I may have to run fresh wire from the inlet box to the new spaces in the panel box as my brother in law didn't leave enough slack in the inlet box wire to make it to the correct spot.
Yellow circles show the three neutral bus bars in the panel. A fourth on the left side stacked on top of the first was not required.
My green highlighted stranded ground wire comes from the cold water pipe before the water meter in the center of the houses floor plan and terminates onto the neutral lug in ONE PLACE.
The orange/bronze circles indicate the 2 ground bus bars for the panel. A third you will see is laying at the bottom of the box unused.
The blue dots, circle, and line show and trace the wiring going to the 100 amp subpanel in the center of the houses floor plan. I had my brother install that for my welder and accessories in the garage at the same time as the panel box this past summer. You will notice the blue dots show the 2 hot legs, 1 neutral leg on the neutral bus bar, and ground wire coming from the top and terminating in the neutral bus bar.
The black circle shows where a black 120 folt leg, red 120 volt leg, neutral leg come from the street, and multi neutral stranded ground comes from the cold water pipe and terminate into the main lugs in the panel.
On the romex coming from the power inlet box which is again highlighted by orange arrow, in addition to the 2 hot legs shown by orange dots, the ground wire runs up the left side of panel and terminates into the left ground bus.

Question 1. Is there a legal means of crimping an additional length of romex to the existing power inlet box romex so I can make it go up to the upper right slots without running all new romex ?
Question 2. I understand that with my set up I have to remove the neutral bond strap on the mep-002a. So does that mean that I am kosher with the ground wire in the L14 plug going to the ground bus as I have it now ? What I mean is, ok the wire i'll be buying is 8/4. The 4th wire being the ground, So, at the plug, on the plug lugs, the 2 hots correspond to the hots on the plug, the neutral to neutral, ground to ground, then I attach the plug into the power inlet box, and does that ground wire in the soow wire which is now connected to the ground bus make it all good ? And where at the generator do I attach the soow ground ? On the ground lug on the frame of the generator ?

Edited to add:
Very important: the ground running out to my subpanel seen as the short blue/green traced wire on the right ground bus bar goes to a ground LUG in the subpanel designated for a ground. These grounds are not run parallel to ensure a ground parallel is not created, creating a difference in impedance.
Anyone who has a subpanel MUST be sure this is done correctly.
Also for those who may ask, I will NOT be using my subpanel for anything in the event of a power failure.

 

[dependable]

The ground from your 8/4 goes to ground lug on generator. Did not follow all of question 2, but ground from 8/4 goes from gen ground lug to ground inlet in the 4 prong plug you have set up for interlock. The 4 prong plug is hooked to panel the same way you would hook up any 240V plug.

When I installed my interlock, I had an electrician do the actual wiring as he was on site for another project anyway, he used regular wire nuts to extend the romex in the box.

 

[Chrispyny]

The ground from your 8/4 goes to ground lug on generator. Did not follow all of question 2, but ground from 8/4 goes from gen ground lug to ground inlet in the 4 prong plug you have set up for interlock. The 4 prong plug is hooked to panel the same way you would hook up any 240V plug.

When I installed my interlock, I had an electrician do the actual wiring as he was on site for another project anyway, he used regular wire nuts to extend the romex in the box.

You answered my question thanks .. the ground wire in the soow wire is terminated on the ground lug on generator, then to ground lug on l14 plug, then in the panel, the ground in the romex from the power inlet box is terminated on a ground bus just like it is now . good.. my only thing is how to extend the wire to the new location for the 30 amp breaker for the power inlet box .. I really don't want to use wire nuts .. I found a couple things on line for splicing romex but I think in order to look good, I may have to just replace the wire .. sigh ..

 

[dependable]

I was surprised the electrician used wire nuts, but he said it was fine. He was there to wire a garage sub panel (that had a permit pulled and had to be inspected) and he seems to know the code pretty well.

To OP of this thread, did you check out MEP-003 hook up sticky in aux equipment forum? It has some diagrams near end that might help.

 

[Isaac-1]

There are options other than wire nuts, try asking at your local electrical supplier, look up Burndy inline splice

 

[tim292stro]

Question 1. Is there a legal means of crimping an additional length of romex to the existing power inlet box romex so I can make it go up to the upper right slots without running all new romex?

A wire can be spliced with wire nuts, insulated splice cripms, or insulated splice clamps - as long as the connection is done inside a box and the wires are the same conductor size (i.e. you are especially not allowed to reduce the size of the downstream wire), strain relief clamps are also required to ensure the splice is not pulled against the inside of the box potentially exposing and shorting bare current carrying conductors to the box. This means that while considered "sloppy" by those in the trade, you can do a splice in your breaker panel.

 

[jbk]

dont forget to remove the nuetral/ground bond at the gen. if your connected to your house. its the 6 gauge wire coming from the back of ac output box to the back of the generator ground nut.

 

[dkpaintball]

i did look through the sticky but I wasnt really sure where the info i was looking for was. Ill go look a bit more, thanks for the reference.

 

[Chrispyny]

So I am officially official. Today after school i go to part time, i spent a few hours removing the short 10/4 wire and power inlet box from the exterior of my home. I then used the old wire to pull string outside and then fished a longer length of new 10/4 back in (orange wire on bottom of panel). I moved the breakers around, and installed the 30 amp generator breaker in the 2/4 positions in the panel box. I couldn't bear to put in a splice in my beautifully installed new panel box so i had to do it the hard way.



Then i installed the Square D QO Interlock Kit. The kit is awesome. Few parts, easy to install. But i have one major problem with this kit. It costs $49.50 at Home Depot. What a frikkin rip off man. It's 2 dollars worth of material. One could easily make one with a peice of sheet steel and a dremel to cut out the parts. Holy cow, $50? Really ?





Anyway now it's done, the power inlet and wire, and breaker, and interlock are now officially CODE. All i need now is to go get my 002a and get her running.

 

[tim292stro]

Looks really clean, nice job

Then i installed the Square D QO Interlock Kit. The kit is awesome. Few parts, easy to install. But i have one major problem with this kit. It costs $49.50 at Home Depot. What a frikkin rip off man. It's 2 dollars worth of material. One could easily make one with a peice of sheet steel and a dremel to cut out the parts. Holy cow, $50? Really?

Probably the certification process that costs so much - after that they like to bend you over and "service the account..."

 

[steelandcanvas]

Good job Crispy! Replacing that short wire kept your panel nice and clean. Bravo for taking the extra effort!

 

[steelypip]

Every joint between conductors is a possibility of resistive heating or arcing. Yes, it's allowed, and yes I've done it. But, particularly when carrying a generator's whole output into a panel, I tend toward conservatism, and would have done as you did.