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Obsolete qlow plugs for generators

Jimc

Jimc

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thanks and yes everyone thinks its 10mm because the morons at champion say its 10mm on their website when you look up the specs for the ch42.:cookoo:
 
steelypip

steelypip

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Allowing for resistance going up as the element gets hot, the above two posts bracket the answer nicely.

Re the: resistors are bad because CUCVs use them comment, Isn't that a single resistor to a common power rail for all the plugs? Yes, that's a bad idea. What you want to do is have one resistor (or equivalent) per plug. That way the plugs are all independent of each other as long as the bus wire going to the B+ side of the resistors is big enough.

I still think that an active VR might be a pretty solution if we can get the specs right. Five amps isn't an amazing amount of current, I think there are a bunch of TO-220 cased regulators that can handle that if heatsinked.
 
m16ty

m16ty

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hurst01 said:
The power source comes into the manifold heater and then to one glow plug then jumps from the glow plug to the other, already in series (on MEP002). If one glow plug burns out the other still works without doing any damage to the other.
Click to expand...
No. The glow plugs are wired in parallel on a MEP002. As Jimc has pointed out, it's almost impossible to wire the glow plugs in series because they ground through the threads. In a series connection, if one goes out they all go out in the same series (like Christmas lights).

One resistor for each plug should work fine. A grid heater should work also if it isn't too cold but wouldn't work as well as plugs.
 
Jimc

Jimc

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i did a little internet searching for the ch42's. what a joke that is. it seems anyone who has them in stock has realized they are no longer avail and want about $60 a piece for them hahah WOW.
 
Ratch

Ratch

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I like the idea of running then off one battery, but it won't work. Not because of balancing the batteries (you could run one plug off each battery), but because there's no way to hook up a ground for the plug. If you connect the chassis to the ground terminal of each battery, it will effectively short one battery. You could get away using the center positive of the series, but that would run both plugs off one battery.

I'm thinking a retrofit grid heater that's energized while cranking is the best solution. Possibly better than glow plugs since it will heat the intake air more granularly. Or an insulated bushing that adapts smaller 12v glow plugs, which can then be wired in parallel off the existing 24v supply.

I do a lot of fault-tolerance work, and one thing I've learned is when to say when. I would call a can of ether my failover if one glow plug in series failed the whole bank.

002's are certainly hard to start when ice cold, but I've done it without glow plugs in 0-5 degree ambient temps. Took a lot of cranking, but it was doable. It took even less cranking a week later, so I think when exercised regularly, the glow plugs are not as necessary. I personally hate glow plugs and don't use them if avoidable.
 
Ratch

Ratch

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The more thought I give this, the more I like another members description of using one battery. The load (16 amps?) is minimal, so unbalancing shouldn't be a real concern. If it is, rotate the batteries during routine preventive maintenance to balance their life. They should recharge fine, though.
 
m16ty

m16ty

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Running off one battery will work but battery life will be affected, even if you rotate the batteries.

My DC charging system is junk and I'm thinking of just running a 24v charger off of the AC circuit to keep the batteries charged. I guess if I went with two 12v chargers (one for each battery) balancing wouldn't be a problem.
 
Speddmon

Speddmon

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Has anybody given any thought about contacting Champion or any other manufacturer and seeing if they have any other 24 volt glow plugs. And then drilling the head and tapping it for a different plug?
 
Ratch

Ratch

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m16ty said:
Running off one battery will work but battery life will be affected, even if you rotate the batteries.

My DC charging system is junk and I'm thinking of just running a 24v charger off of the AC circuit to keep the batteries charged.
Click to expand...


I have the same problem, and a 24v charger off the convenience outlet is the solution. Bear in mind, that charger will also be running all the 24v metering and controls, and the fuel pumps.
I discovered mine was bad when the batteries went completely dead and the fuel pumps had no more power.
 
H

hurst01

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m16ty said:
No. The glow plugs are wired in parallel on a MEP002. As Jimc has pointed out, it's almost impossible to wire the glow plugs in series because they ground through the threads. In a series connection, if one goes out they all go out in the same series (like Christmas lights).

One resistor for each plug should work fine. A grid heater should work also if it isn't too cold but wouldn't work as well as plugs.
Click to expand...
The MEP002 I have sitting here has a hot wire going to the manifold heater, a jumper from the manifold heater to the glow plug by the fan and another jumper from that glow plug to the other glow plug. It appears to be all original as it was manufactured. The manifold heater and both glow plugs are on the same circuit hooked in series. Each one, the manifold heater and both glow plugs do not have their own power source, but a single one to all three. If a resister is used for a power reduction, it could be connected in-line after the manifold heater leaving it 24V and before the first glow plug making both glow plugs 12V, at least on this one. I have two others on another property and are the same.
I see what you are saying, the glow plugs are parallel but it is the power source that is in series, it does not have an individual source going to each heater/glow plug. I guess it is how you are looking at it:wink:, whether upside-down or backwards. Didn't mean to sound confusing

The grid heater is nothing more than a manifold heater, which it already has.
 
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C

Chainbreaker

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Ratch said:
The more thought I give this, the more I like another members description of using one battery. The load (16 amps?) is minimal, so unbalancing shouldn't be a real concern. If it is, rotate the batteries during routine preventive maintenance to balance their life. They should recharge fine, though.
Click to expand...
What about using something like this which should eliminate any concerns with balancing the two 12V batteries:

http://www.solarconverters.com/index.php/products/82-battery-equalizer/156-eq-proper-usage
 
H

hurst01

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Jeffersonville, Indiana USA
steelypip said:
Allowing for resistance going up as the element gets hot, the above two posts bracket the answer nicely.

Re the: resistors are bad because CUCVs use them comment, Isn't that a single resistor to a common power rail for all the plugs? Yes, that's a bad idea. What you want to do is have one resistor (or equivalent) per plug. That way the plugs are all independent of each other as long as the bus wire going to the B+ side of the resistors is big enough.

I still think that an active VR might be a pretty solution if we can get the specs right. Five amps isn't an amazing amount of current, I think there are a bunch of TO-220 cased regulators that can handle that if heatsinked.
Click to expand...
I have found several VRs that would work for this that are 20 amps with heatsink and are vibration resistant. Problem is the cost... around $25. This would make the neatest and easiest install. On the other hand,cuad4u brought up something that I had thought about before that would work by using a 40A relay powered by the 24V source after the manifold heater and running a 12V source from the battery that is tied in with the starter, going through the relay to heat the glow plugs. This could be done for less than $6 and a length of wire for the 12V source. Both would still utilize the original switch for heating the glow plugs and be completely reversible.
 
Speddmon

Speddmon

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hurst01 said:
The MEP002 I have sitting here has a hot wire going to the manifold heater, a jumper from the manifold heater to the glow plug by the fan and another jumper from that glow plug to the other glow plug. It appears to be all original as it was manufactured. The manifold heater and both glow plugs are on the same circuit hooked in series. Each one, the manifold heater and both glow plugs do not have their own power source, but a single one to all three. If a resister is used for a power reduction, it could be connected in-line after the manifold heater leaving it 24V and before the first glow plug making both glow plugs 12V, at least on this one. I have two others on another property and are the same.
I see what you are saying, the glow plugs are parallel but it is the power source that is in series, it does not have an individual source going to each heater/glow plug. I guess it is how you are looking at it:wink:, whether upside-down or backwards. Didn't mean to sound confusing

The grid heater is nothing more than a manifold heater, which it already has.
Click to expand...
You might want to take a VERY close look at that wiring. Your manifold heaters (there are 2 of them in the intake) are in series with each other since they are 12 volt heaters. The glow plugs CAN NOT be wire in series. Just by the very nature of how they ground to the block.

Edit, this is proper factory wiring. Notice the one lone wire going to the left to the manifold heater. What you cannot see is the jumper between the 2 inner studs of the heaters and then the short wire looping up to the mounting screw at the manifold itself. Of the other 3 wires from that cannon plug, 2 are going to the fuel cutoff solenoid, and one is going to the farthest right glow plug, and then jumpering from plug to plug.

DSC04338.jpg



hurst01 said:
That would be an expensive glow plug.
Click to expand...

Yes, it would be an expensive glow plug. But your alternative is a 1000 pound chunk of scrap iron sitting around your house that won't start.

There are ton's of ways to use 12 volt plugs, but all of them would mean pulling 12 volts off of one battery which is not the best long term solution. To do it right, the head would need drilled and a new plug fitted in.
 
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