Biodiesel

[Scott88M]

To me this sounds like a dumb question but here it goes. I have a M923A2 with 8.3L cummins. I'd like to stay using some biodiesel from a reputable station. They have 99%, 20%, and 0% bio. The 99 is alot cheaper so my thought is to use rewards points to get my Dino diesel elsewhere cheaper then top off with the 99% at roughly a 20% ratio. Am I right in assuming that is basically 20% bio then and therefore safe for my truck?

Like I said sounds like a dumb question but I'm new to OWNING a diesel and don't want to mess it up.

 

[Rusty Nut]

Good question. I was wondering if bio diesel increases algae in tank of seldom used truck.


consider source

fppf killem

good info

found this: Bio-Bore is the real Mcoy it works best hands down. If you have access to a vacuum pump like one used to change oil in a boat. Attach a longer hose to it and put a 3 ft section of of copper tube at the other end. Stick the copper tube in the tank and and use it like a wand in the low end of the tank to get the creeping crud out. As for how often you should use an algiecide. It's not needed if your going through a tank of fuel say every month or two. If your going through a tank of fuel every day or every other day you won't need it at all. The refinery adds a bio-cide to fuel when it's refined. If you need to buy something such as Bio-Bore get it from a diesel injection shop they have it on the shelf. Stay away from any product that that is not regestered with the EPA as a bio-cide meaning if it dosen't have an EPA reg. Number on the bottle it's not a real Bio-cide. Most people that run diesels don't understand that a diesel injection system by passes a lot of fuel. Fuel is used to cool injection cmponents and passes through your primary and secondary fuel filter many times over. So once you have the creeping crud out it's gone. Unless you let the truck sit for for 6 or 7 months without running it then you may encounter a problem again. I hope this answered your question.

 

[hklvette]

Bio-D can eat natural rubber seals quickly. Not sure if the CTA uses any or not, but that would be a concern.

 

[Scott88M]

I've heard keeping to a 20% maximum of bio should be safe on anything don't know for certain

 

[Jeepsinker]

There is nothing in your fuel system that 99% bio is going to hurt. Run it carefree.

 

[Beyond Biodiesel]

As for biocide for diesel fuel and biodiesel, gasoline in small quantities will kill the critters in the fue, and force water out of solution. 5% should work fine, and it helps as an anti-gel in the winter as well.

 

[Scott88M]

Thanks for the replies. I understand bio cleans or the system and I'll have to change filters more often at least at first and it gels easier in cold. I just wasn't sure about seals etc deteriorating due to 99% and if 20% won't. Looks like I'll probably switch to 20% until it warms up the I'll switch higher % in summer

 

[jlxb]

Hi All,

I am a registered Biodiesel manufacturer in Minnesota. While all the comments so far in this thread are well informed, I would like to add a few things due to an amazing amount of bad information in the world. As a manufacturer and distributor I have seen 1st hand every kind of real and imagined disaster. The imagined kind seems to have the greatest longevity - go figure. I know I should not make it my mission to fix it.

1) Every fuel has bio enemies including gasoline and jet fuel.
2) Ultra low sulfur diesel introduced an entirely unforeseen bio vulnerability among other issues like cold flow and viscosity problems that did not exist before.
3) 20% Biodiesel is no less vulnerable then 99% or 100% ULSD. I am baiting the backyard fuel chemists. If you disagree....prove it!
4) Infections tend to start at the terminal and not in your tank.
5) Major fuel retailers are far less likely to be infected then smaller retailers that get their fuel from local distributors. (time in tank + air + water)
6) There are several kinds of possible infection including several types of algae, bacteria and other micro organisms.
7) The root cause of infection is water, air and time. Your fuel is the food they want but they must also have water and air to survive.
The petroleum industry is very proactive about pre-treating - but they will rarely reveal what is in their proprietary blend. Retailers generally can not answer a question.
9) Farm tanks are most vulnerable
10) I am seeing fewer "real" infections now then we did in 2008. I have responded to many claims, looked in many tanks and found many problems. Very few of them were actually biological as claimed.

Actively look for it! If you clog a filter, cut it open and scrape the junk out from the pleats.

If it is redish or green - most likely algae - red dyed fuel hides the symptoms for awhile.
If it is whitish and pasty- it is most likely water/biodiesel at all temperatures. Possibly paraffin fall out from ULSD if it has been -0 F.
If it is black or grey - it is most likely residue from your fuel lines dissolving in Biodiesel. Most common in vehicles mfg prior to 1995.
Other biologicals and/or contamination can be very complex and difficult to diagnose.

Water issues and natural rubber problems are far more likely and often mis-diagnosed as biological.

Water is the biggest problem. While it can lead to biological attack, it will cause problems before a new infection takes place. ULSD can only hold 200 ppm in solution. heavy water then will always appear as free water in the bottom of a diesel tank. Biodiesel can hold nearly 10x that of ULSD in solution or emulsion. ULSD and BD are highly miscible. Meaning they blend well and stay blended at all temperatures. However, when you add water, the BD will start absorbing it, become heavy and fall out to the bottom. It is easy to spot as even small amounts will cause the blend to go cloudy. Large amounts will result in pasty white goo on the bottom of the tank. this goo is easily caught in your average fuel filter - clogging them quickly. Strangely, diesel engines don't hate a little water. But filters do!

Biodiesel is a solvent to natural rubber and will dissolve it. Vehicles and equipment made before 1995 had allot of natural rubber in the gaskets, o-rings, filters, filler boot and injection pumps. Some of these parts will last forever and others a matter of months. But beware, the replacement for natural rubber (EDPM and High Nitrile rubber) are not 100% compatible though they are marketed as such. They will slow it down. Only Viton is thought to be 100% and it is expensive. There are now Viton kits available to rebuild many common injection pumps.

So, if you are going to store Biodiesel or a blend, let the tank settle awhile, drain the bottoms off, close any breathers and close the top tightly. You may also want to keep the tank full in order to eliminate air spaces. No water, no air exchange - even if the tank has a biological issue, it will not grow quickly. Just good tank hygiene. Before you store a tank, there is a paste you can buy. Smear a little dab on the bottom of a stick and drop it to the bottom of your tank. Withdraw the stick. If it changed color, you have water. Inexpensive prevention and maintenance. When you open the tank after storage, test it again. All tanks are vulnerable to condensation. If needed, drain the bottoms again until it runs clear. Storing for very prolonged periods (years) is never a good idea. Both BD and ULSD will start to break down eventually. Look up "Oxidative Stability". There are additives for this as well.

Last, I get way more calls these days from folks using WVO or WMO and all the variations. These things are way more complicated then we are led to believe by the people who are trying to sell us conversion kits and filtration systems.

If you ever see something you can not identify and/or fix, please contact me. It could be educational for me as well. Most things I can spot in a good photograph but if needed, I have a lab. I am particularly interested in the folks out there that are distilling plastic into fuel. I have not seen any of that yet.

Best regards - please don't send me hate mail!

 

[PATRIOT1]

It's the generosity of you, the SS members, to spend the time and effort to better inform we fellow members (even sometimes without ridicule or contempt for our (my) ignorance on many subjects). Thank you, jlxb, for your generous contribution above. One of many that makes this site so unique and valuable to us.

 

[Scott88M]

Thank you very much. As I said I'm new to owning a diesel and was a little nervous about switching to biodiesel. I won't be storing it for any amount of time my truck is basically a daily driver and I'll only be fueling up at a reputable station. Sounds like besides keeping an eye on gaskets, temps, and clogged filters I should be good to go. Here in RI biodiesel is about .60/gallon cheaper and locally produced

 

[Jeepsinker]

So I'm assuming that the reason farm tanks are the worst because they always have a lot of air space in them and they sit for long periods of time? Could they be improved by adding some kind of circulating system with a filter inline?

 

[jlxb]

It's the generosity of you, the SS members, to spend the time and effort to better inform we fellow members (even sometimes without ridicule or contempt for our (my) ignorance on many subjects). Thank you, jlxb, for your generous contribution above. One of many that makes this site so unique and valuable to us.
Wow! I did not expect that - you are very welcome.


Here in RI biodiesel is about .60/gallon cheaper and locally produced
Especially if you can get it directly from the producer. In October this last year, we saw the value of all Biodiesel feedstock oils fall by as much as 40% while Diesel prices have not fallen. This value difference has not reflected at all in the nation wide retail value of blended fuels. But it is if you can get it in high percentages from the manufacturer or their nearest distributors.

 

[Beyond Biodiesel]

So I'm assuming that the reason farm tanks are the worst because they always have a lot of air space in them and they sit for long periods of time? Could they be improved by adding some kind of circulating system with a filter inline?

It is common practice in the UK, where biodiesel is far bigger than it is here in the USA, to add gasoline at about 5% to biodiesel, which reduces gelling, and forces water out of solution with the biodiesel, which prevents algae formation.

 

[jlxb]

So I'm assuming that the reason farm tanks are the worst because they always have a lot of air space in them and they sit for long periods of time? Could they be improved by adding some kind of circulating system with a filter inline?



Yes! Time, moisture and air exposure. But it doesn't start there. They are also most likely to be getting their fuel delivered from a small nearby tank farm. Big tanks, lots of air and huge amounts of condensation in the tanks. I learned that when I was buying tanker loads from small suppliers (to blend with my BD), don't be the first delivery in the morning! All that water sitting in the bottom of their tank gets delivered to my tank. I had to start testing truckloads for water content before allowing them to unload. They would get really mad having to wait and outraged if I rejected the truck.

Continuous filtration will catch particulates, living and dead biologics. It may not stop completely a biological entity. However, I bet it would slow it down and/or stop the dead bodies from settling in the tank. They tend to bloom and die off like algae in a pond. Doesn't do anything to improve the economy of fuel. Electricity costs money.

If you have water in the tank with biodiesel, constant high shear pumping action will actually combine the molecules into an emulsion like mayonnaise. You will know it if you see it. The only way to break it is with heat - 165 F. Turns right back into BD and water. we were always told that oil and water do not mix. Not quite true. an emulsion like this can be more than 50% water. If it is cold enough, it will never break on its own.

Jeff

 

[Beyond Biodiesel]

If you have water in the tank with biodiesel, constant high shear pumping action will actually combine the molecules into an emulsion like mayonnaise. You will know it if you see it. The only way to break it is with heat - 165 F. Turns right back into BD and water. we were always told that oil and water do not mix. Not quite true. an emulsion like this can be more than 50% water. If it is cold enough, it will never break on its own.

Jeff

Thanks for the useful information on biodiesel, Jeff. I do not use pumps when moving my waste oil-gasoline blends, due to the problem of emulsification. Instead I use pneumatic pumping, which is just producing a positive pressure above the fluid needing to be moved to a tank that has a lower pressure.

Also, a small amount of gasoline can be added to emulsified biodiesel and it will break the surface tension and rapidly force the water in the emulsion out of solution.

 

[NormB]

This is fun. Came across this from a newsfeed from CFACT.
HAte to do a “zombie post” resurrection, but searches for “biodiesel” led to this forum, this post.

****************

Germany's fighter jets in Schleswig-Holstein grounded after too much bio-diesel was mixed into the jet fuel.
Share the fact from the FAZ (German).
(Google translation) The Luftwaffe tornadoes of the German Armed Forces at the air base Jagel in Schleswig-Holstein have not been allowed to fly for a week. The kerosene was mixed with too much biodiesel. This was noticed during a routine check last Monday, report the "Schleswig-Nachrichten". "The tolerance values are minimally exceeded," said Colonel Kristof Conrath of the Tactical Air Force Squadron 51 "Immelmann" the newspaper.
"It's not that the aircraft would fall from the sky," he said. Nevertheless, it is of course true that at a limit overrun the fuel will not continue to be used and the planes remain on the ground. For safety reasons, all tanks of the aircraft must be flushed.
The cause of the contamination was still unclear, it was said. The breakdown is particularly annoying for the Luftwaffe, since the training of new Tornado pilots already three months in arrears.
Also on Monday it was announced that the Bundeswehr for deployment in 2019 in the rapid reaction force of the NATO not only missing tanks, but also protective vests, winter clothing and tents. This is according to "Rheinische Post" from a paper of the army command.
___
Do you think Germany's adversaries would be grounded by Green fuel problems? What do you say Vladimir
**************************

”Hey, PFC Snuffy, go mix up some of that Biodiesel with the JP-8 to make the hippies happy.”

”Okay, sarge, I’m on it.”


[Meine einzige Frage - für Guyfang oder - ist, “Gibt’s auch ein “PFC Snuffy” im Freiwillige Blundeswehr?]


http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/...el-biodiesel-legt-tornados-lahm-15456789.html

 

[Chainbreaker]

I usually hang out over in the Auxiliary equipment forum section, specifically as it relates to MEP generators. I decided to look over here in alternative fuels to see what you guys were saying about biodiesel and concentrations greater than 5% and found this thread.

In my quest for answers, I ran across this enlightening article and thought I would share here to get your thoughts/comments:

https://breakingenergy.com/2014/07/30/fuel-stability-problems-challenge-fame-biodiesel/

I must say that "JLXB's" post #8 above seems to correlate with several points the above article raises.

 

[Beyond Biodiesel]

Thank-you, https://www.steelsoldiers.com/member.php?48076-Chainbreaker Chainbreaker for posting a very useful article.

The above issues, and especially the above photo, suggest that biodiesel has the same problems of engine sludging that WVO-based fuel blends, as well as heated two-tank SVO systems, have been found to have. I propose that this is due to 3 problems: 1] incomplete combustion of alternative fuels in naturally aspirated diesel engines; infrequent oil changes; 3] and finally incomplete removal of HMPEs and gum from the feed stock for making the alternative diesel fuel, and not directly related to either biodiesel or low melting point triglycerides. This suggests that the biodiesel process is not a solution to preventing crud formation on the valve lifters and rocker arm from burning WVO-based fuels (discussed at length at the link). It also suggests that those who study biodiesel have not figured out the problem.

I have observed this problem in a naturally aspirated 6.2L diesel engine. My observations suggest the problem seems to be components of the feed stock of vegetable oil-based fuels are not completely combusted in a naturally aspirated diesel engine, and/or not completely removed in the alternative fuel making process.

The suggestion here is:

1] Never burn alternative diesel fuels in a naturally aspirated diesel engine.
2] Change the engine oil regularly (every 3,000 miles diesel engine that is burning alternative diesel fuels.
3] Always add an oil additive, such as Lucas Oil treatment after every oil change.

 

[hungryhungarianz]

Hello. I am new to this site and have been reading some forums about conversions and bio fuel. I would like to know is there any info on conversions on steelsoldiers forum done on a 1956 M135 Gas to Diesel Swap. And what kind of engine can be used to replace the 302 GMC in a M135? Any info on this topic would be muchly appreciated. Thanks in advance.