Fuel Lines

[cuad4u]

Just curious, what price does a "cannibalized" condition" Mep go for? This could be a way for me also to get spare parts. It would appear that once the government gets rid of all the gensets parts will be hard to get at a reasonable price.

I don't want to mention "price", but I got each of the gens for less than what a rebuilt IP would cost. As you mentioned, even cannibalized gens have a wealth of spare parts.

These 8 gens had been passed over at all the sales and had been sitting on the yard out in the weather for over 3 years. I guess they had a minimum "reserve" that nobody would match, so they did not sell. That is only my guess. After talking with the person in charge, he offered what I thought was a good deal but only if I bought all 8 gens. I think he just wanted to get rid of them and move on.

EVERY one was missing the 3 fuel pumps and EVERY one was missing the 3-section fuel filter assembly and all the fuel lines. Most were missing the oil filter canister, fuel tank, and many were missing various gauges. Several were missing the 24V voltage regulator. The gauge panels were all sun bleached and the panel silk screening could not be read. None was pretty to look at. I bought them mainly as a source of spare parts.

Over the winter I got bored. I started messing with them to see if I could take parts off this one and that one and have enough parts to make one or two run. I did get a few running. I could probably get more running but the cost to do so would probably be more than they are worth, or at least to sell. Each one I got running has a $35 after market diesel tractor fuel filter assembly (ebay), spin-on oil filter mod offered by a poster on this site, repaired (JB Weld) fuel tanks, one (not three) $30 after market 24V fuel pump (ebay), NAPA diesel fuel rated "rubber" fuel hoses secured to brass hose barb connectors by worm drive hose clamps, etc. I also had to switch and swap fuel injectors until I found those that "worked" properly. The running gens definitely are not mil-spec, but they run and work.

When all is said and done, I still have lots of parts left over that should help me keep the other 002A and 003A gens running for a long time.

 

[Chainbreaker]

View attachment 491062

Found this from Cummins Generators about the copper fuel line issue. Go to page 6, it refers to piping.

Some good info there, thanks! BTW it's chapter 6 pg. 120 just to make it easier for others to find. So its sulfuric acid that forms from condensate and sulfur over time and attacks the copper in either pure diesel or biodiesel mix. I guess biodiesel is even more hydroscopic and would accentuate the process. In addition to not using copper components in diesel fuel systems, it's just another reason to keep our tanks fully topped up in this moisture laden neck of the woods (less air = less condensate).

 

[Chainbreaker]

Running ASTM certified biodiesel through the copper lines in our trucks should be of no consequence. You need moisture and oxygen to cause the corrosion and oxidation that most people refer to regarding biodiesel and copper incompatibility. The sealed areas that are the fuel supply lines should be fine. As long as you don't run them dry and/or pump water through there, the biodiesel will just flush and clean out your system.

Submerge and drop a piece of copper into a sealed glass biodiesel container. Nothing will happen.

You might get by with it in a "truck" that has copper lines where fresh diesel or biodiesel is used and consumed on a regular basis. However, in a generator that is not being used routinely and has fuel sitting in an exposed vented fuel tank, that may be only partially full, you will have condensate form over time which can lead to formation of "sulfuric acid". The OP was using copper tubing in a draw tube application which would be exposed to both air and condensate, although it could be less of an issue with the today's low sulfur fuel. Why risk that process by introducing copper into a fuel system where it was never spec'd? There is good reason we have so many petcocks on tanks and fuel filters to drain off any accumulated water droplets that settle out. Sure if you submerge a piece of copper into a sealed glass of "fresh" biodiesel nothing will immediately happen. However, metal generator fuel tanks and contents do expand and contract, so in essence it is breathing in/out daily through the vent hole which exposes the fuel to atmospheric moisture which condenses at night when cooler in the inside walls of the fuel tank. Also, copper has a tendency to crack when subjected to continuous vibration over time as Copper is known to work harden – it becomes brittle when worked, bent, hammered, etc. Diesel powered generators are vibration machines! No copper is going in my generator's fuel system!

 

[rustystud]

Running ASTM certified biodiesel through the copper lines in our trucks should be of no consequence. You need moisture and oxygen to cause the corrosion and oxidation that most people refer to regarding biodiesel and copper incompatibility. The sealed areas that are the fuel supply lines should be fine. As long as you don't run them dry and/or pump water through there, the biodiesel will just flush and clean out your system.

Submerge and drop a piece of copper into a sealed glass biodiesel container. Nothing will happen.

I have been reading up one this issue and it seems that there are opinions about this that range all over the place ! It is confusing to the ninth degree ! and I'm a "ASE" Master Certified Mechanic and I don't know the answer to this !!
Just to be safe I bought some brass tubing which I will use in place of the copper tubing I installed. Just because "you never know !"
It would be nice if some engineering types would add there worth about this topic.

 

[rustystud]

Actually, just the opposite. I cringe when I see a misleading or incorrect statement posted on SS.

As a moderator who cares and takes great effort to keep this site correct(the internet is a tough place to "monitor"), I do not hesitate to point out and correct false info or incorrect assumptions.

For those that don't know any better, it may look like arguing, but it's not. It's educating.

Your right on the educating part, but on the availability of this fitting your wrong, for this area. I go to "Western Hydraulics Inc." It is a "Parker" distributor and they have a hard time getting this fitting as the only ones using this are the military and some government agencies now.

 

[Chainbreaker]

Copper Vs. Biodiesel

It would be nice if some engineering types would add there worth about this topic.

Here is an excerpt of an abstract from a study on effects of biodiesel and various metals, etc. Unfortunately the study itself is copyrighted and is prohibited from being linked to 3rd party websites. So you will have to Google it (the name of the study) and pull up the PDF yourself to view it:

A critical review on corrosion of compression ignition (CI) engine parts by
biodiesel and biodiesel blends and its inhibition
B. Singha, John Korstadb, Y.C. Sharmaa,∗
a Department of Applied Chemistry, Institute of Technology, Banaras Hindu University, Varanasi 221 005, India
b Department of Biology and Renewable Energy, Oral Roberts University, 7777 South Lewis, Avenue, Tulsa, OK 74171, United States
Accepted 18 February 2012
Keywords:
Corrosion
Static immersion
Stainless steel
Aluminum
Copper
a b s t r a c t
"This paper reviews the effects of corrosion on the engine parts that come in contact with a newly developed
biodiesel fuel and its petrodiesel blend. Copper, aluminum, copper alloys (bronze), and elastomers
caused significant levels of corrosiveness in biodiesel and biodiesel blend as opposed to low corrosion
with petrodiesel. Specimens of stainless steel showed significant resistance to corrosion in biodiesel samples
as compared to copper, aluminum, and copper alloys, but the level of corrosion was still higher than
that in petrodiesel. Common methods adopted for measurement of corrosion include weight loss through
static emersion tests, and electrochemical techniques by electrochemical impedance spectroscopy or on
Potentiostat/Galvanostat. The surfaces of the specific metal strips were analyzed by optical, scanning
electron, and atomic force microscopy, revealing the nature and extent of corrosion. Fourier Transform
Infrared Spectroscopy revealed formation of secondary product due to degradation, and X-ray diffractometer
revealed formation of a new phase in the metal strips exposed to biodiesel and its blend with
mineral diesel. Biodiesel seemed to degrade due to auto-oxidation and presence of moisture to secondary
products that enhanced the corrosion rate. The problem related to the use of non-compatible materials
as engine parts for biodiesel-run vehicles is dual in nature. The engine part in contact with the fuel is
corroded as a result of fuel degradation, causing the fuel to go further off-specification."

 

[skinnyR1]

You might get by with it in a "truck" that has copper lines where fresh diesel or biodiesel is used and consumed on a regular basis. However, in a generator that is not being used routinely and has fuel sitting in an exposed vented fuel tank, that may be only partially full, you will have condensate form over time which can lead to formation of "sulfuric acid".

No argument there. I don't run biodiesel at all in my generator, or tractor for that matter, as they both sit for long periods of time. In general, biodiesel has a shelf life, and I don't run it in anything that I think it may sit in for more than 6 months.

Now, in an emergency situation or at a time I knew I would run it all through, I wouldn't hesitate to use it.

 

[Chainbreaker]

I wish we had that choice in our state. Unfortunately they legislate our gas/diesel and neither is in a pure form when they get finished with it. Fortunately, the biodiesel added to our fuels is in a low enough percentage that it is manageable using it in tractors, generators, etc. I add my own dose of additives to help maintain fuel stability over time and stay away from using any known incompatible materials in fuel systems.

 

[rustystud]

Does anyone know if they add Bio-diesel to our regular diesel here in Washington State ? All I'm aware of is the "ultra-low sulfur" and the problems associated with it.

 

[massey]

There should be a sticker on the pump, B5, B10, B20 or some indication.

 

[Chainbreaker]

WA State Biodiesel Mandate

Does anyone know if they add Bio-diesel to our regular diesel here in Washington State ? All I'm aware of is the "ultra-low sulfur" and the problems associated with it.

"On Nov. 30, 2009 Washington implemented a B2 requirement that was enacted in March 2006 when Gov. Christine Gregoire signed into law Senate Bill 6508. Specifically, the legislation mandates fuel retailers to sell a B2 blend within state borders. The requirement will increase to 5 percent once in-state biodiesel production reaches 3 percent of total in-state diesel demand."

Source: http://biodieselmagazine.com/articles/3144/washington-b2-mandate-in-effect-oregon-soon-to-follow

Note: WA State Vehicles (WSDOT) appear to now be running B40, according to pg. 8 in the link below, displaying the "up to 40% Biodiesel" pump sticker. Of particular note on pg. 15 it shows fuel injector repair costs rose by 174% which apparently peaked from 2008 to 2010. Introduction of ULSD was Sept 2007 and the WA biodiesel mandate was Nov 2009. One could speculate that the elevated repair costs which followed those events might be related to those changes in diesel fuel content. However there are other factors that might have contributed - age/mileage of WSDOT fleet, etc.

http://agr.wa.gov/Inspection/WeightsMeasures/docs/WSDOT_Biodiesel_Concerns.pdf

 

[rustystud]

I decided to use brass for my pick-up tube. I ordered some 0.3125" X 0.028" X 0.2565" brass tube from "onlinemetals.com" . Here's some pictures.

 

[Chainbreaker]

Your generator is jumping for joy now!

 

[dangier]

Good job! Your workbench looks a lot like mine though...

David

 

[rustystud]

Good job! Your workbench looks a lot like mine though...

David

Yea, I have about 4 projects going on at once ! My wife says I have ADHD !

 

[rustystud]

I finally finished replacing all the hoses on my MEP-002A today. Here are some pictures of how I did the filter to injection pump ( which I forgot to add from my MEP-003A post) . I installed the oneway check valve on the secondary filter outlet. Then ran an almost straight hose to the injection pump. The MEP-003A has a straight fitting coming out of the pump while the MEP-002A has a 45 degree fitting for clearance issues. Now if I ever need to replace a hose all I will need is the hose (very cheap) and a ferrule (also very cheap) . I have a lot of spares .