Starter noise / free spinning

[carter262]

Good morning,

I have a new issue I am working on and would like some second opinions.

1984 M1009

I have been having a problem with hard starts when the vehicle is cold. I have put in a new glow plug card, replaced the glow plugs on the driver side with AC 60Gs. I am working on the passenger side, all 4 are swollen.

Yesterday when I went to start the truck would turn over then start making a noise that sounds like the bendix or fly wheel are missing teeth. I cut the switch off then try to start again and it will turn over then start the sound again. This happens regular now when the engine is cold. It has never done it before. I have not had a chance to pull the starter yet, but find it strange that it will turn over again if I cut the switch off and then restart. Has anyone else run across this?

If it was missing teeth on the fly wheel and hit a blank spot then it would not turn over if cut off and retried. If it was missing teeth on the bendix then it would slip at the gap and pick back up once the teeth reconnected passed the gap, right?

If it is the bendix does anyone know the part number for the replacement? The starter is good and expensive to replace so I would rather just replace the bendix.

Thanks

 

[doghead]

Look at your starter, it may have a broken or loose bolt or no support bracket.

Also, unless you have resupplied your GP relay with 12 volts, starting it with 4 bad GPs can ruin the new ones.

 

[carter262]

Look at your starter, it may have a broken or loose bolt or no support bracket.

Also, unless you have resupplied your GP relay with 12 volts, starting it with 4 bad GPs can ruin the new ones.

Thanks doghead. I am at work today but when I get a minute I will climb under her and take a look at the starter bolts. Sundays are slow at the Fire Department, unless we get a call, so I should have a little time to tinker today. Also, It appears that the resistor has been by passed on mine prior to my acquiring it.

Why does it do it when cold more than when warm?

By the way, I am beginning to believe that you live on here. You are always one of the first to answer. Thank you for that!

 

[doghead]

They start much easier when they are not cold.

 

[carter262]

They start much easier when they are not cold.

That makes sense.

I know not everyone on here is a fan but I am putting in a block heater to help with starting. I work for a small rural fire department and sometimes have to run calls from home. I need it to start as easily as possible in the middle of the night. The problem I ran into is that I am on my third one, Kats brand, I so many weeks and they keep shorting out. But I guess that is a little off topic for this thread.

 

[Westech]

My last M1009 would start instantly even at -5* with out a block heater.
With a block heater you wont have a issue and will have heat right off that bat.
One thing I do is put my engine heaters on a timer. That way it is not sucking power all night long.
I would set mine for on 30 min, off 1 hour or just turn on a hour before I needed to start it and go.
Even at -30* a hour is plenty for a block heater to get things warmed up.
In one of my M1008's I have a old inline heater hoes heater and it takes about 10 min for that thing to have the
engine roasting hot.Tthat inline heater is only 750 watts and I have left my little 900 watt HF generator in the bed and used that to
power the heater when I can not get her plugged in someplace.

As the starter goes my M1008 is doing the same thing. I am going to pull the starter and have a look. I am thinking I will be installing a
new flywheel and starter.

 

[carter262]

My last M1009 would start instantly even at -5* with out a block heater.
With a block heater you wont have a issue and will have heat right off that bat.
One thing I do is put my engine heaters on a timer. That way it is not sucking power all night long.
I would set mine for on 30 min, off 1 hour or just turn on a hour before I needed to start it and go.
Even at -30* a hour is plenty for a block heater to get things warmed up.
In one of my M1008's I have a old inline heater hoes heater and it takes about 10 min for that thing to have the
engine roasting hot.Tthat inline heater is only 750 watts and I have left my little 900 watt HF generator in the bed and used that to
power the heater when I can not get her plugged in someplace.

As the starter goes my M1008 is doing the same thing. I am going to pull the starter and have a look. I am thinking I will be installing a
new flywheel and starter.

Yea it is getting in the 30's to low 40's around my way at night and I am having a hard time starting in the mornings. I know part of it is the glow plugs that I am working on but I will cycle it three or four times and still having trouble starting, so I think the heater is a good backup / helper for that.

I have some chores to do around here then I am going to pull it in the bay and take a look at it. I hope Doghead is right and it is the bolt. I am not looking forward to working on the starter on top of the having to get out four swollen glow plugs.

 

[carter262]

Ok climbed under her and checked to starter bolts and bracket. All present and snug.

I did find that all three bolts that bolt the transmission and bell housing together on the passenger side were missing. Strange? Got some new ones and lock washers, installed them, and still having the same problem! Turns over then spin. Cut off key, try again, turns over then spin, cut off key and same thing until it starts. This sucks, I guess I am pulling the starter.

Is the bendix the same one on the civilian models?

I found this one on NAPA web site,
Part Number: BK 6561037
http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/C...Starter-Drive-Remfd/_/R-BK_6561037_0062869813
Has anyone used it to rebuild theirs?

 

[firefox]

If it were me, I wouldn't even try to use the truck until I had replaced those
swollen glow plugs. If they start to fall apart you will have a far greater problem than
trouble starting it.

 

[carter262]

If it were me, I wouldn't even try to use the truck until I had replaced those
swollen glow plugs. If they start to fall apart you will have a far greater problem than
trouble starting it.

Unfortunately I have to. It is my daily driver and only vehicle. I was able to get the front one out today and it is a priority to get the others out. I will be working on that problem tomorrow.

 

[flumsi]

I had (and still have) the same starter problem with my Grand Cherokee. Mechanic said: missing tooth. What significantly helped was to wait a few seconds (5 or more) before the next try. Then the second try is always successful. In my situation it works, although i don't believe much in the explanation: the longer pause gives the flywheel and the bendix time to come to a complete stop. If the next try is successful or not depends on the random position of the gap when it comes to a halt.

 

[carter262]

I had (and still have) the same starter problem with my Grand Cherokee. Mechanic said: missing tooth. What significantly helped was to wait a few seconds (5 or more) before the next try. Then the second try is always successful. In my situation it works, although i don't believe much in the explanation: the longer pause gives the flywheel and the bendix time to come to a complete stop. If the next try is successful or not depends on the random position of the gap when it comes to a halt.

Missing tooth where? Fly wheel? Starter drive / bendix?

 

[flumsi]

I believe the flywheel. (have it like that about two years, and it's not getting worse)

 

[infidel got me]

Take the starter to a rebuild shop-price will outweigh buying a new one.while starter is out turn motor over by hand and look at ringgear teeth-it sounds like your bendix is bad -good luck p.s.you can probably turn engine over with prybar or big screwdriver at ringgear/flywheel

 

[carter262]

If the starter is ok except the bendix / starter drive I would like to just replace it myself. I have done it with other vehicles, so it is not a big deal.

The problem, I have been reading on here all day. I can not find the part number mentioned any where. So Is the bendix a 9 tooth, 10, tooth, or 12 tooth? Has anyone actually replaced theirs? I have read about the rebuild kits, with part numbers listed, but they did not show a bendix in the kit that I looked at. NAPA has bendixs, I listed one I believe is for the civi 1984 K5, but I am not sure it is the correct one for the M1009 24v starter.

So any help? Please.


Update:
Found it with a little help from here.

It is 10 tooth
TM has number as 1893445
AC Delco #D2027

 

[carter262]

New twist on Starter run on ?

It happened to me

1984 M1009 has bee running fine. Stopped at local u-pull-it found new tail gate crank with the key, a good working, spare tail gate window regulator, and some other goodies for about $30.00 so the day was going great.

Went outside loaded everything up and went to start my baby then I heard it. The truck was running but I could still hear the starter going. I felt sick! I cut the key off and could still hear the starter going, so I quickly popped the hood and pulled the cables. After some cussing and crying I climbed under and tapped on the starter solenoid, my dad's idea. Well it appeared to be a good one because it started back up as normal. Now I have her home and must repair her.

So hear are my options and questions:

First question: has this ever happened to anyone else after doing the doghead relay mod? I forgot to mention that I have done the relay mod on mine as soon as I got it.

Next options: I could go with the reduction gear starter. Cheaper option but does NAPA sale the bracket too? I have to fix it now it is my only vehicle and don't have time to order the bracket.

I could buy a new original but don't have $300 plus from my local surplus military guy or this would be my first option.

I could replace the solenoid on the starter itself, but I need to part number or guidance. since I beleive the starter is ok and the problem is the solenoid I would like to go this route. It is probally my cheapest out. So if you have that part number please let me know. Also please confirm that it is 24v.

Last I could have it rebuilt for $100 plus the cost of a new solenoid and two days with no ride.

So what do you think? I have the part numbers from the stickys for the starters and brackets but not the solenoid.

Thank you any help or insight would be appreciated.

 

[Warthog]

Sounds like your starter is just worn out and needs a rebuild.

You never did say for sure which starter you have. Assuming the older direct drive.

The gear reduction brackets are a dealer only item.

The direct drive starter solenoid is
GM 1114373
NAPA ECH ST335 - Price is only $239 (you may not want to go that route)

Or you could order it from this place
http://www.texasindustrialelectric.com/starter_solenoids.asp
Part number 7-920. Cost $32.50

Why not buy it from your rebuilder?

You will find that most local places do not stock 24v parts. Usually have to be ordered.

Now an option is to see if you can pickup as 12v starter. It will work for a short while to get you by.

 

[carter262]

Sounds like your starter is just worn out and needs a rebuild.

You never did say for sure which starter you have. Assuming the older direct drive.

The gear reduction brackets are a dealer only item.

The direct drive starter solenoid is
GM 1114373
NAPA ECH ST335 - Price is only $239 (you may not want to go that route)

Or you could order it from this place
http://www.texasindustrialelectric.com/starter_solenoids.asp
Part number 7-920. Cost $32.50

Why not buy it from your rebuilder?

You will find that most local places do not stock 24v parts. Usually have to be ordered.

Now an option is to see if you can pickup as 12v starter. It will work for a short while to get you by.

Thanks doghead.

Sorry about that it is a direct drive. Yea that is the problem that i am running into, everyone I talked to has to order the parts.

At this point I think I am going to have to drive close to two hours one way to get one a replacement tomorrow, eat the core charge, and keep the old one to have rebuilt as a spare. My local NAPA's do have one so I would have to drive to the closest distribution center that has one. If I get lucky, i will find out in the morning, and my surplus guy has one I want have to drive so far.

 

[Jackel44]

If you are wanting to switch to the gear reduction, here is the part numbers.

Part Number 10465015
Napa Part NumberWIL 91014417

Model 28MT
Vehicle System Voltage 24
Mount Type PAD
Pinion Teeth 10
Pinion Pitch 10/12
Solenoid Position 304
Rotation CW

Strap 23502557
Bolts (You will need 2 of them) 15544950

I currently have the same issue and I have contemplated switching to the gear reduction starter and rebuild my dd in my free time. http://www.aspwholesale.com/index.php?page=0&act=viewCat&searchStr=27MT&Submit=Go

 

[carter262]

If you are wanting to switch to the gear reduction, here is the part numbers.

Part Number 10465015
Napa Part NumberWIL 91014417

Model 28MT
Vehicle System Voltage 24
Mount Type PAD
Pinion Teeth 10
Pinion Pitch 10/12
Solenoid Position 304
Rotation CW

Strap 23502557
Bolts (You will need 2 of them) 15544950

I currently have the same issue and I have contemplated switching to the gear reduction starter and rebuild my dd in my free time. http://www.aspwholesale.com/index.php?page=0&act=viewCat&searchStr=27MT&Submit=Go

I appreciate the help with the part numbers. I don't really want to switch over to gear reduction at this point and don't have time to wait on the bracket to be shipped even if I wanted to switch. I only have one day off to get it fixed then I have to go back to work.

Thanks again for the part numbers and info.