Gama Goat Tours?

[HUM469]

I am brand spanking new here, and I hope it isn't bad manners of me to register just to ask a series of questions, but I it looks like this forum can help and if anyone is willing to chime in, I would appreciate it.

I have just come across a Gama Goat this weekend local to me and I am extremely intrigued. I am an outfitter and tour operator in Arizona, and this truck is local, seems to be a steal of a price, and has been retrofitted with a GM V8 and 700R auto-tranny that seem to be up to the task of moving it along well. Because of the price, I am tempted to buy it and put it to work in my tour company offering a very unique, interesting way of shuttling people along a couple of rivers I do tours on, as well as doing straight up desert 4x4 tours kind of like the Hummer Tour companies that seem to be popular out here. Is this a crazy idea?

I spent most of my non-working hours over the last 2.5 days reading everything I can find about the Gama Goat. I know with the old diesel, it was slow, loud, and possibly troublesome. This new engine/tranny combo I am very familiar with and know they can hold up to tour use. Are there any other systems or potential issues with Gamas I should be aware of? Is there any reason (other than what I assume will be horrible gas mileage) that the Gama would not be appropriate to these proposed commercial uses? Has anyone seen any company use a Gama in tour operations before? Any other thoughts or input would be appreciated too. Thank you for reading and thank you in advance to any input you can provide.

Also, no I have not seen it in person yet, but will be doing so in about 3 hours. I will take photos and notes, and post them here in case anyone else is interested in it if it is determined that I cannot use it.

 

[hndrsonj]

When you say along a couple of rivers, I hope you mean driving along them on a road?

 

[dmetalmiki]

Not the sort of vehicle you would get public liability on surley? Old detroit slow? No definately not, noisy yes. our gamma goat is the fastest vehicle in the fleet. But it is not driven like that. It will be interesting to see the pictures and the eventual aquisition, hopefull by a member on this site and restored approtiately.

 

[mkcoen]

I second dmetalmiki regarding speed. Trust me the stock motor puts out as much speed as you'll ever need hauling people. We had mine up to around 40mph going cross country this weekend and for the driver it felt like floating on air, but for the people in the carrier it was a very hard surface e-ticket ride. I've talked to vets who said they had the 60mph speedo buried driving on the Autobahn in Germany.

I also second what hndrsonj alluded to in his post. While it may be safe to take one of these out on a quiet lake for a quick spin (with hours and hours and hours of maintenance afterwards) they are not fit for a river. There's about 3" of freeboard when it's floating so any kind of flow, rapid, heavy wake, etc, will swamp it. After having to drain mine from a heavy rain at one of the shows I can attest to how much water the inside will retain once exposed to it.

They're great vehicles and a blast to drive but are maintenance nightmares. Talk to any veteran that had to work on one or drive it and they're first likely to start cussing about it before anything else. It's one thing to have it sitting in the garage to take out on weekends to parades and something else to have to have it combat ready or ready to work on a daily basis.

My suggestion would be to buy it and use it for advertising, maybe take it out a couple of times a month for a road tour, but don't plan on it being something you use regularly.

 

[HUM469]

When you say along a couple of rivers, I hope you mean driving along them on a road?

Yes, on road (sort of). A couple of our river access points we want to use are technically forest roads, but they never get graded, so they usually have some.... interesting... points. We have done tours using them but being as we can't count on our vans, we use a 4x4 Suburban for this most adventurous trip. It is limited in seating though, and we could open up the trip to a few more people since it looks like the Gama will seat 10 in the back (granted, from the photos I know that's a tight fit). The majority of our river access points are on graded dirt or paved roads, so we will continue to use our vans there of course, except for special events maybe where we would want to get noticed.

Not the sort of vehicle you would get public liability on surley? Old detroit slow? No definately not, noisy yes.....

I am not too sure what you mean about public liability. If you mean can my corporation insure it for commercial use in Arizona, the answer is yes, I already talked with them about what they would want to see in an inspection and I have a shop that can install all necessary safety gear up to the DOT standards they require. Speed, that's good to know that even a stock motor isn't what I have been reading. Basically every comment I came across prior to this forum was made by guys stationed over seas in the 70's and how they hated getting assigned to drive a Gama in a convoy because it was always loud and never kept up. It is my understanding that convoys were supposed to keep it to less than 55 in civilian traffic, so I assumed that the Gama couldn't make that based on their comments. It will be interesting to see how loud the GM small block is though. I don't need it to be driven fast, but there is a point or two where we might have to pull out on a road with a 55mph speed limit, so I was a little concerned about being able to get in to and out of traffic for that 1 mile jaunt, as well as to be able to get the beast up to the town where we will keep it.

 

[HUM469]

I second dmetalmiki regarding speed... My suggestion would be to buy it and use it for advertising, maybe take it out a couple of times a month for a road tour, but don't plan on it being something you use regularly.

Thank you mkcoen. Looks like you were replying while I was. No, I was not intending for it to go in to the river! Just a shuttle to a couple of hard to reach access points. There is another place near a lake we do some tours and classes too which could be fun to take it out in the water, but I assumed from the moment I saw the first swimming video that any water based work would be a major pain.

Since it no longer has the stock engine or transmission, do you think that would improve maintenance concerns, or are the causes for curses related to all the remaining drive train challenges (4 wheel steering, flex joint, etc)? I don't think it would go out daily, but rather be reserved for the limited higher adventure tours we do so maybe once or twice a month. Would that still be substantial use from a maintenance perspective? I definitely appreciate so much input so quickly....

 

[mkcoen]

Since it no longer has the stock engine or transmission, do you think that would improve maintenance concerns, or are the causes for curses related to all the remaining drive train challenges (4 wheel steering, flex joint, etc)? I don't think it would go out daily, but rather be reserved for the limited higher adventure tours we do so maybe once or twice a month. Would that still be substantial use from a maintenance perspective? I definitely appreciate so much input so quickly....

The motor and transmission, standard Detroit Diesel and '60s era GM 4 speed, are the easy things to work on. The front steering box is directly below the steering column and you need to take the driver seat out and crawl in under the brake pedal to check the fluid. These tend to leak so much that I changed mine over to JD Cornhead Grease. The articulation joint was made by an unknown (to me anyway) European manufacturer and I imagine parts are scarce. The combination of air and brake fluid lines going to all 6 wheels plus the quick disconnect for the same between the tractor and carrier are tedious to get to and service. Then there's the million and 1 zerk fittings that all need grease. If you plan on floating it at any time you'll need to go through the TM and triple check all of the amphibious related items such as the hull plugs, brake drum o-ring seals, etc. I'm not saying it can't be done and if you're looking at high end customers may be worth the effort but I'm guessing you'll need to buy your mechanics lunch on a daily basis while they're working on it.

 

[HUM469]

... I'm not saying it can't be done and if you're looking at high end customers may be worth the effort but I'm guessing you'll need to buy your mechanics lunch on a daily basis while they're working on it.

Hehe, I can do that. Yeah, more of a prestige thing, a unique occasional offering that could be fun. I kind of thought some of these things could be a concern based on the fact that there are no photos what so ever of the remaining running gear. Fears confirmed, I will check it out in a few with detailed eyes and plan to spend some time getting dirty tonight....

 

[NDT]

I once took a group of potential buyers for a test drive in a newly restored goat. There were about 6 of them riding in the back. I was attempting to show them the agility of the truck by doing a little booney bashing. Something about the articulated center joint makes for a ride that wants to throw you out up and out of the back. They were screaming for me to stop (of course I could not hear). Needless to say they did not buy the goat.

 

[Charlie 6]

Recommend a Pinzgauer 710 or 712.

 

[CARNAC]

Recommend putting in your location. United States is not specific enough. It's also CARNAC's pet peeve.

 

[HUM469]

... Something about the articulated center joint makes for a ride that wants to throw you out up and out of the back...

Noted, make sure to never go fast in the dirt! After looking at it, I will definitely want to build custom seating with harnesses because there isn't anything in the way of traction or much cushion to the stock rear benches, that's for sure. In this one, you could have heard though... they did a great job muffling the big V8.

Recommend a Pinzgauer 710 or 712.

I do know the Pinzgauers much better, but that's largely because there are a lot of them around here. Not nearly as eye catching when you see whole club meetups. But what specifically would make you lean that way?

Recommend putting in your location. United States is not specific enough. It's also CARNAC's pet peeve.

Sorry about that Carnac, but it wouldn't let me set anything in the profile on the phone for some reason, so I had to wait till I got home. I will post up more info and the photos I shot in just a few minutes....

 

[Keith_J]

Seated in the back is uncomfortable at nearly any speed. Standing with bent knees is best.

Get a Unimog for that task.

 

[nchittendon]

Why not get a deuce to suit your needs?

 

[mkcoen]

Why not get a deuce to suit your needs?

I think he is looking for that "unique WOW" factor. Deuces are great (I have one myself) but you can see them all the time. There aren't that many Goats running around.

 

[1958 M274]

Here's my take on the gama goat... I've had my personal M561 for about ten years now, and maintained three others in operational condition for a museum where I used to work. Mine was my daily driver for about a year soon after I got it. When I say daily driver, I mean it, as I didn't own a "modern" vehicle at the time and my only other roadworthy truck was a 1942 Dodge!

As others have mentioned the "old diesel" is a very reliable engine and in my opinion one of the best parts of a gama goat. With original factory governor settings they will cruise comfortable at 60+ mph. I've done it often over the years, including one 400+ mile trip, and countless 100-200 mile excursions. It does slow down significantly on hills though. Here's a video taken on the way home from the GA rally a few years ago...

https://youtu.be/p1CtSR5_gFI

With the repower yours should have no problem achieving that speed as well, maybe more. I remember several years ago back when the gama goat yahoo group was active there were a couple guys out west that had put Chevy V8s in their M561s. If I remember correctly they reported running 70+ mph in them, but maintaining engine temperature was an issue. At lease one gentleman overcame the issue by adding large air scoops on both sides of the hood over the fenders above the center axle.

Don't let the mechanical aspects of a gama goat scare you off. In my opinion there is nothing on it that's harder to do than working on a M37 or M35. I can't speak for how the new engine and transmission were installed in yours, but the parts of the vehicle that are original should give you little trouble if maintained properly. It took me a while to repair and restore the neglected mechanical systems of my gama goat after I purchased it, but now I usually spend one full day a year greasing and servicing mine around the time of the GA Rally. Otherwise it's just minor stuff here and there like any vehicle. Many members here have seen my gama goat driven to it's limits at the GA Rally, and it still gets me home over 100 miles every year. It's one of the most reliable vehicles I own. Good luck with yours!

 

[SCSG-G4]

Rules for Gamma Goats in the water: 1. Turn the bilge pumps on high just before entering the water. 2. Make sure everyone is WEARING a life jacket. 3. Attach a heavy tow cable to the back that will reach to shore. 4. Before attempting all of this get some 2 x 10's and fit them on the sides of the driving compartment to give you an additional eight inches of freeboard - you will need it!
Better suggestion - buy the DUKW in California advertised on this site, as it will easily seat 10 people comfortably. It's unique, and as long as the trails are large enough for a deuce, you should not have any problems driving on them!

 

[HUM469]

Thank you all for your input, it is definitely appreciated and considered....

Deuces - Also very common around here (two parked in driveways within a mile of me) and they don't fit on a lot of the trails. Everyone thinks of Arizona as wide open desert, but in fact most of our 4x4 trails slink through narrow canyons, up steep ravines, or otherwise require tight maneuvering. Humvees often have a tough time because of their turning radius approaching 30 feet, I know the Goat is similar, but it is manageable. I know the Deuce isn't too much more, but then we have to look at height clearance under all the low hanging rock faces, Cottonwood trees along the river, and many others. I am afraid the Goat is just about as big as it can get and still be doable. There's a reason the Pink Jeep tours in Sedona use only 2 door JKs and the slightly smaller Hummer H2's for their trips.

Water - I do think it is neat that it would be possible to float it out for an even or two each year, but the amphibious function is not what I am after. It turns out that the one available to me isn't water ready anyway. A previous owner cut out parts of the sides under the middle fenders, possibly for the engine and tranny swap. Of course I could have it put back together and made water tight again, but this is simply not a priority for anything other than marketing possibilities. I can't see taking customers out in the water on a ride even if I do the work to make it amphibious again some time in the future.

As for the one I am considering, I am sorry I did not post photos last night. I could not seem to get them to load on the computer here. Unfortunately it still seems to be having issues. Not sure if I am too new to be able to post photos, but I will keep trying. Basically it is road worth right now. Has decent shape 40" Pro Comp XTC's, the engine (fuel injected 454) runs well and is VERY quiet the way they ran the exhaust. The only real trouble with the swap is that they have the bigger transmission (700R4), the bigger engine, and the bigger radiator, and they don't have the slim line water pump or other front end accessories so the radiator is currently set up standing on a cross brace above the engine. I would definitely need to re-engineer that. The trailer section is intact with only a few minor dents and dings, the rear lights have been swapped to LEDs, the tail gate is in good shape it appears. Even the underside is relatively clean for being a 42 year old military vehicle that the previous owner also went out wheeling in the desert with. There are the usual scrapes and scuffs, put surprisingly little rust on anything that isn't aluminum. There is signs of slow oil seepage from all three differentials and both steering boxes, but no signs that any of them leak badly enough to drip. The transmission does have a little bit of weirdness between 2 and 3 despite being freshly built about a year ago, but then my brother in law owns a transmission shop, so those issues scare me least. All in all, it seems like a stellar buy for $5,000, ****, the green paint is even mostly unscuffed! I think I would have bought it for sure if it weren't for the fact that I'm just finishing up a major expansion of my company and cash flow is a little messed up. There's a strong chance I will go back to buy it anyway since it some how felt wrong leaving it behind....

 

[mkcoen]

This wouldn't happen to be the one you're looking at, would it?

 

[HUM469]

I am on the phone right now so it's a little hard to see, but it definitely looks like it could be the same one. the exhaust is different and it has a roll cage over the crew carrier now but everything else looks the same.