Wet Sleeves leaking coolant into oil MEP-006a

[mclarkva]

Been around this for awhile - operated for a while with bars leaks radiator sealer with radiator cap off so no pressurization.

trapped water is rusting things under valve cover - broken spring on #4

Going to have to tear it down!

Anybody have one of those special head bolt wrenches to get to the head bolts Under the lifter rail?

 

[mclarkva]

Sure enough - electrolysis in block- orings leaking and depositing sealant through all three -


will have to repair seat area - going to try the JB Weld pit filling technique:



now lots of sanding and reshaping ....

 

[mclarkva]

coolant in the oil - its bad - bad for bearings and 5 of the 6 pistons galled and #2 broke a skirt - #1 shirt is cracked at the same location

...the old girl still ran full load - puffing steam out the valve cover breather (recirc hose disconnected to protect turbo intake) and would turn fresh rotella into caramel latte in an hour or so...



ordered parts:

• A reground head from Jim Henry with a couple extra push rods and valves and springs and 2 sets of gaskets...200# truck freight
• 6 cylinder kits and bearings from Kevin at Illini direct shipped to us
• DCA4 based diesel engine coolant and test kit
• filters and more cases of rotella - jb weld and various abrasives and hones

 

[robertsears1]

This may not be applicable in your situation but I will relay some information learned from water in the oil on our JD 2030 tractor which is around 60 hp (1972 model). The tractor dealership said that the coolant would get tiny bubbles in it and they would pop on the wet side of the cylinder sleeves thereby eroding a hole. After a rebuild, we put an additive into the coolant that is supposed to stop the erosion from coolant bubbles. It is my understanding that road tractors run one or two filters in the coolant system to fight this problem.

Robert

 

[Guyfang]

The 006 had a bad problem, with the oil cooler letting coolant into the oil, and vice versa. When the oil cooler is unbolted from the block, the two "O" rings were often the culprit. I would take a look at this area if it were me. The "O" rings are cheap insurance for this engine. We ran eight MEP-115A, (the 400 hertz, Precise Power Model) gen sets 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year. This kind of leak was a killer for us. Hard to spot.

 

[mclarkva]

Yes we see a little micro cavitation damage but these cylinder sleeves are massive enough its not as bad as the corrosion - but that is why we went to a moly, nitite, fully formulated coolant - Fleetguard DCA4 or Peak Fleet Charge

What does everyone use for coolant on these diesels? I was considering adding a filter - good for monitoring too - I did get the Fleetguard test strips so i can quickly monitor coolant condition.

 

[mclarkva]

The 006 had a bad problem, with the oil cooler letting coolant into the oil, and vice versa. When the oil cooler is unbolted from the block, the two "O" rings were often the culprit. I would take a look at this area if it were me. The "O" rings are cheap insurance for this engine. We ran eight MEP-115A, (the 400 hertz, Precise Power Model) gen sets 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year. This kind of leak was a killer for us. Hard to spot.

Thanks! We checked that first before diving into the overhaul - I replaced the o rings and was surprised they were not included in any of the gasket kits. I often match an o ring material and size on McMaster Carr and order a bag of 25 or 50 - the problem was o ring related but it was the cylinder sleeve o rings and I replaced the whole sleeve set with o rings and pistons

I finally got one of the cone of o ring measuring devices

 

[mclarkva]

This may not be applicable in your situation but I will relay some information learned from water in the oil on our JD 2030 tractor which is around 60 hp (1972 model). The tractor dealership said that the coolant would get tiny bubbles in it and they would pop on the wet side of the cylinder sleeves thereby eroding a hole. After a rebuild, we put an additive into the coolant that is supposed to stop the erosion from coolant bubbles. It is my understanding that road tractors run one or two filters in the coolant system to fight this problem.

Robert

check out Motocraft VC8 - similar additive to Fleetguard DCA4 - i've been using that in my duallies and ton vans - test strips are good too

 

[Chrispyny]

Why not new pistons? You have a broken skirt on one, cracked skirt on another and galls on the rest?

Also, whats the first image of? It looks like where o rings may reside, which looks like electrolysis removed metal, but what part is that? I'd replace that entirely aswell. Forget a jb weld repair. You just tore down a whole engine, why slap it back together without a proper fix? Maybe im reading you wrong..

 

[mclarkva]

Why not new pistons? You have a broken skirt on one, cracked skirt on another and galls on the rest?

Also, whats the first image of? It looks like where o rings may reside, which looks like electrolysis removed metal, but what part is that? I'd replace that entirely aswell. Forget a jb weld repair. You just tore down a whole engine, why slap it back together without a proper fix? Maybe im reading you wrong..

Absolutely new pistons rings sleeves o rings - all part of the cylinder kit (6 kits required) plus bearings

The 1st picture (post with 2 pics) is of a removed sleeve cleaned showing white radiator sealant creeping through all o rings right to the oil pan. Those sleeves will be replaced. The 2nd Picture is of the seat in the cast block that the three o rings are pressed through sealing the sleeve to the cast block at the bottom. That part is where the JB Weld fills the pits (after honing and cleaning) from electrolysis corrosion and then the JB Weld must be sanded and honed to restore to near original surface. Each sleeve must be dry tested (minus the o rings) to see that it fits with proper standout on the block deck. So the JB Weld is just filling the cavities in the o ring mating surface. Lots of time on this sanding and honing process as the JB Weld is softer than the cast block metal but tends to glaze and clog regular hones.

A real metal fix would require one to remove the block from the frame and to bore and sleeve with an insert (dont know where to find that) into that bottom chamber and then rebore the o ring taper and chamfer from the top. Not sure how the stake that in place other than freeze and interference fit. The block is pretty hollow inside and too much pressure could cause cracking. Another block might be easier and cheaper... anyway my backup plan was an engine transplant - but the replacement engine could suffer from the same corrosion at the o rings just waiting to let go since it would be out of another unit. I wish I knew exactly how these were repaired or if that is why they scrap them out.

Adding sealant to the o rings is problematic and not recommended - first you have to get that past the top hole when you insert the sleeve which requires some compression of the o ring and would scrape off your sealant - though we have made a thin film of non hardening permatex go through ok if it is not taller than the protruding o ring. All TM notes are absolutely nothing but vegetable oil or the o rings will swell and roll out of the grooves. Been There done that - and its a pain. Maybe even have to get fresh o rings. Putting sealant on the bottom seating area almost surely rolls the o rings out as they all have to slip through the slight taper into the full depth of seat.

Just a dang fragile part of such a tough engine - three little o rings hold the coolant and oil separation in an area inaccessible in the hollow of the cast block- any damage cutting misalignment twisting or pitted surface is a recipe for leak of coolant into the oil pan - over pressurization of the coolant system during an overheat seems most likely to blow that seal - acidic or poorly maintained cooling water or just sitting unused for months at a time seems certain to cause corrosion trouble too.

It works when done just right - definitely no slapping anything together

 

[Chrispyny]

Gotcha. What confused me is the sleeve. I didn't know what i was looking at. I have only seen a diesel engine with cast iron sleeves torn apart once. My best friends dad bought a dozer used and it wouldn't run right. We thought it was injectors but once we sent them off to get rebuilt, after reinstall, same problem. White smoke, ran poorly.

This was like 10 years ago on a early 70's dozer. Don't even remember what kind. I was the helper, we tore the whole engine down. It was a cracked sleeve that was causing the problem. So we rebuilt the whole engine.
What got me was that the sleeves we used for the rebuild, as well as the old sleeves, had no orings of any kind. If i remember correctly we used a locktite product to seal the sleeves to the block. And unless my memory serves me poorly, which it may, the head held all 4 sleeves in place. It was an almost clearance fit. I wish i remember what dozer it was. If i had to guess, i'd say a cat.
So when i saw your sleeve upside down, with oring channels, i didnt know what i was looking at.

Good luck. Keep us posted.

 

[mclarkva]

Gotcha. What confused me is the sleeve. I didn't know what i was looking at. I have only seen a diesel engine with cast iron sleeves torn apart once. My best friends dad bought a dozer used and it wouldn't run right. We thought it was injectors but once we sent them off to get rebuilt, after reinstall, same problem. White smoke, ran poorly.

This was like 10 years ago on a early 70's dozer. Don't even remember what kind. I was the helper, we tore the whole engine down. It was a cracked sleeve that was causing the problem. So we rebuilt the whole engine.
What got me was that the sleeves we used for the rebuild, as well as the old sleeves, had no orings of any kind. If i remember correctly we used a locktite product to seal the sleeves to the block. And unless my memory serves me poorly, which it may, the head held all 4 sleeves in place. It was an almost clearance fit. I wish i remember what dozer it was. If i had to guess, i'd say a cat.
So when i saw your sleeve upside down, with oring channels, i didnt know what i was looking at.

Good luck. Keep us posted.

Loctite 640 ive heard was used - even suggested in pitted situations but it has a very narrow gap filling capacity and not very flexible - i was not sure it would work in this engine. Ive heard bondo - RTV - all sorts of ideas but Kevin at Illini parts confirmed JB Weld metal filled epoxy carefully smoothed as a proven technique if pitting not too bad.

Somehow I get the idea there is slight movement at the o ring interface - even just flex of the o ring not travel really - I see every old o ring is slightly cut or eroded at the edges like the corrosion cut into them.

You are right about the head holding them in and no seal at the top other than head gasket. Sometimes shellac was used but I found that messy and possible obstruction to seating against the step. Also the torquing of the head bolts compresses and pushes the sleeves hard against the step in the deck face... if a loctite was used in the bottom it could set before this compression and either prevent proper seating or be stressed or sheared by the head bolts - those dang head bolts are 155-165 ft/pounds each and 26 of them! Takes a 3/4 drive long torque wrench for me to pull that in frame. I already did a reground head on this engine earlier trying to avoid the sleeve tear down.

Wet sleeves are cool idea - i just wish the interface was easier to access. They seem good idea if you never let the coolant get out of condition or let the engine sit drained exposing inside of block to oxygen in the air.

 

[mclarkva]

its running again!

it took days but here is a video link of the old girl purring like a baby tiger again:




facebook link: https://www.facebook.com/MichaelatMeetTheFarmerTV/posts/10210000540516502?notif_t=like&notif_id=1463141016339150

 

[Guyfang]

MCLARKVA,

It sounds like you have this covered. We only used Veggie oil to put our "O" rings back on. We tried Permatex, RTV, (of every type) and just about every conceivable glue, pate and adhesive we could find. Not lots of it, just enough, or so we hoped, to hold the "O" ring in place long enough to get the darn thing back together. Veggie oil was just about the only thing we found worked 99.9999999999% of the time. If properly taken care of, this engine/gen set is simply outstanding. In the early 70's when we were first issued them, it was a different story. But mostly electro problems. 25-30 years of hard use by the military, worked most of the bugs out.

Thank you for the film of the set running! That sound was part of my life for over 10 years. I still miss it!!

 

[mclarkva]

Did you ever have to repair the lower bore? Still uncertain how to accomplish that when the coolant has pitted the o ring mating surface of the lower bore...

 

[Chrispyny]

Did you ever have to repair the lower bore? Still uncertain how to accomplish that when the coolant has pitted the o ring mating surface of the lower bore...

thats where the JB weld came into play and all the talk about honing the jb weld .. see the pic above with the gray stuff along the sides of the lower bore? Thats the pic of JB weld applied, but yet to be machined or honed.

 

[mclarkva]

It sounds like you have this covered. We only used Veggie oil to put our "O" rings back on. We tried Permatex, RTV, (of every type) and just about every conceivable glue, pate and adhesive we could find. Not lots of it, just enough, or so we hoped, to hold the "O" ring in place long enough to get the darn thing back together. Veggie oil was just about the only thing we found worked 99.9999999999% of the time. If properly taken care of, this engine/gen set is simply outstanding. In the early 70's when we were first issued them, it was a different story. But mostly electro problems. 25-30 years of hard use by the military, worked most of the bugs out.

Thank you for the film of the set running! That sound was part of my life for over 10 years. I still miss it!!

Send me an email and I'll make a longer loop for you... and my favorite is the trottle down to idle cool down

 

[mclarkva]

OK we have completed the full load test using our farm as a live load ranging from base of 17KW to 130% load at 78KW.

I was admittedly nervous about this repair with epoxy and getting those o rings to hold - still am really - but she pushed the power out and didn't blow steam anymore.

Our Load Bank: Running 6 greenhouses, house, office, shop, electronics lab, 2 barns, and a chicken coop. Base load averages about 20KW with demands around 45KW but we have a bunch of electric back up heaters we can force on to create a live load bank up to about 100KW. A 5HP air compressor that always challenges other gensets with its high starting current makes the panel meters jump and the engine growl but the 006a handles it in addition to static load about 48KW during the test. Speed drop from no to full load is about 2HZ - wish I had the precise governor like 105a

Mains Power is monitored by an ACCUVIEW 3 phase energy monitor so we get accurate voltage current KW and KVA measurements.

I have a universal electronic voltage regulator set a bit high to get 130v/220v wye configuration. Had rewired this for 240v delta a while back but too much load on one coil for my single phase loads so i moved it back to the wye configuration that keeps all the 120V coils in parallel- so you will notice voltage changes when I transfer off Utility high leg 240V open delta supply to the gensets ballanced 208/120v wye. The farm seems fine with it - some computer UPS don't like that the frequency is not as stable and might momentarily switch to batteries.

The test video is about 20 minutes on YouTube. https://youtu.be/tuQlgYj9iik




4 hours of run in before the testing. Test completed with no water in oil, no steam blowing out of the valve cover breather, no coolant pressurization, and in general the unit appearing to function correctly after the 6 cylinder sleeve piston bearing and head overhauls.

Lessons Learned:

• Test Coolant pH and protectants
• Use fully charged coolant SCA/DCA ( FleetCharge or FleetGuard ) DCA4 supplement
• monitor oil - annual lab test

 

[Guyfang]

Looking good!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[mclarkva]

All running so well I thought I'd replace the ether bottle (Napa #33118 - $48 ). Solenoid didn't function - rusted up - clogged capillary tube - clogged dispersing nozzle!

This unit saw some rough low maintenance times somewhere very corrosive.

Complete disassembly of ether system and cleaning polished plunger - reamed tube with nichrome wire - washed out with cleaner - blow out nozzle - now OK.