IP installment with a mystery

[Bloodmike]

Ok folks, First off I want to thank GIMP for all his help, he has gone above and beyond with this issue and we are still going with it ..... Here's my story, about 10 months my Deuce died in my driveway, and I had to let it sit till just this past week. Since then I have done my homework, I found all the TM's and sticky threads etc. and really did the research. This is what I diagnosed, upon its death, I traced the fuel from the tank to the IP. I have fuel into the IP just not to the injectors, so thru my research I found that it might be the HH. I had a surplus pump sitting on a shelf so I pulled that HH and rebuilt it (new orings new button, healthy cleaning). I lined up my marks on the Deuce IP and pulled that HH, and found the button not seated correctly. Ok, problem solved, I installed the rebuilt HH, and i had little to no fuel at the injector. Alright I see whats coming, I talked to a few people and they said its most likely the IP. So back into the TM's and threads, I found all the necessary info on pulling the IP. Still hesitant I contacted GIMP and he provided me with enough info to be dangerous. So I went elbow deep into the next day, everything he told me was spot on. The pump came out with out a hitch.

View attachment 683024View attachment 683025View attachment 683026
These are the timing marks that the TM's GIMP told me to line up. Ok so I did everything in reverse with a brand new 2016 rebuilt pump and again it went as exactly as GIMP explained. I checked and rechecked, bleed the fuel system, said a little prayer to the diesel gods and tried to fire it up, and nothing. So GIMP told me you might need to give it a bump of ether, so I did, and for a moment it roared to life. It's an extremely hard start, 3 shot burst of ether and 5 seconds of cranking and it'll stumble to its feet. Once its running the RPMs are hunting from 600 to 1200 rpms and it if dips to low it stalls out. Here's a link to a video of it running. I can't figure out how to post it here, so please copy the address below if it doesn't show in this thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfanW-01-m0&feature=youtu.be

What the video doesn't show because it died before I had a chance to get to the engine compartment, the throttle arm can be seen moving with the increase and decrease of the rpms. I looked into the TM's about governor adjustment and the droop screw, and still no improvement. Since then GIMP and I have been going back and forth with the diagnosis, we replicated the exact same steps from the timing marks to pulling the valve covers on both his and my Deuce and we are stumped. He suggested we turn to the forum for some advice. So please anyone with passed experience we (and I mean I) need your guidance. Mike

 

[gimpyrobb]

My truck runs just fine and we have confirmed his timing is the same as mine. I am not sure what to look at from here. Any help would be great guys.

 

[cattlerepairman]

Result from me thinking out loud. Disregard if you do not find it useful.

So you KNOW that
- the HH is correctly timed to the pump and
- the pump is correctly timed to the crank (not 180 degreees out).

You ASSUME that
the rebuilt IP is in fact serviceable....fuel passages not clogged with paint or stuff like that.

The part about starting on ether and roaring to life, then having difficulty maintaining idle and finally dying....IP trying to keep rpm up but fuel starvation?


- is there fuel flow from the tank to the primary and secondary filters and to the IP? You said "yes", but at what pressure? Plumb in a pressure gauge. In tank hose not collapsing, in tank pump running?
- is there fuel flow from the HH to all 6 injectors? When you loosen the injector lines and wrap them with paper shop towels and crank the starter, are all shop towels getting equally wet?

 

[searls84]

I had a problem a couple months ago with the motor in my deuce hunting for idle. I had replaced all the orings on the shut off rod and HH. Turns out the orings on the fuel shut off rod was a little bigger than the stock one. I loosened the two screws on the shut off rod retainer just a tad and it cured the issue. It might be worth checking the shut off rod, I might add that it seemed to move freely when initially checked but but there was just enough resistance to not let it function correctly. Here's a link to my thread, in case you hadn't run across it already in your searches.

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?164579-Idle-Low-RPM-Issues&highlight=

 

[gimpyrobb]

Thank you both.

I had mentioned to him about putting a psi gauge in to see what pressures he was getting.

 

[montaillou]

I didn't see this mentioned, so just want to ask, is your in tank pump doing ok?

 

[Bloodmike]

SEARLS, I read your post with the fuel shut off rod, and this one on my new pump is awfully tight, I have to push to move it. On my old pump it moved freely,I'm going to loosen the 2 safety wired screws today and see if it frees up. As for fuel pressure,I have to go find a gauge that'll do the job, I guess NAPA should have such a gauge .

 

[searls84]

Hopefully it's as simple as loosening two screws! If it's tight then I'm guessing that's at least part, if not all, of your problem.

 

[Bloodmike]

well after a bit of tinkering with the shot off rod screws, removed the air cleaner (to see if it was starving for air)....and no change, still hunts and won't start on its own. I can set the idle to about 950-1000 and it stays running and does hunt anymore, just don't feel comfortable with that high of an RPM. Doesn't matter though, it won't start on its own, next i'm gonna try 2 cans of seafoam and drive it a bit and see , it's been sitting for almost 10 months and i've only run straight diesel (but its REALLY dark in color), never WMO, so I changed both filters . I have to find a fuel pressure tester, anyone have suggestions.....

 

[montaillou]

...I can set the idle to about 950-1000 and it stays running and does hunt anymore, just don't feel comfortable with that high of an RPM.

This doesn't seem too high to me. Mine idles at 850.

 

[rustystud]

SEARLS, I read your post with the fuel shut off rod, and this one on my new pump is awfully tight, I have to push to move it. On my old pump it moved freely,I'm going to loosen the 2 safety wired screws today and see if it frees up. As for fuel pressure,I have to go find a gauge that'll do the job, I guess NAPA should have such a gauge .

Don't loosen those screws !!!!! That 'O'-ring doesn't get rubbed by anything !!! Nothing ever "slides" against that 'O'-ring !!!! If that control shaft is tight then there is some crud in there, nothing more.




In picture one you see the shaft lever standing straight up and the flat (with the pick pointing at it) is horizontal. In picture two the shaft lever is laying down and the flat is vertical. The part which the 'O'-ring sits on doesn't move, ever ! It is the housing which holds the shaft. It has no 'O'-ring as it is a "precision" ground part. The shaft housing has an 'O'-ring to prevent fuel from leaking out of the pump (picture four) . Pictures five and six also show this movement of the shaft.
I wished I had better bandwidth as I could post a short video showing all this.

 

[rustystud]

Result from me thinking out loud. Disregard if you do not find it useful.

So you KNOW that
- the HH is correctly timed to the pump and
- the pump is correctly timed to the crank (not 180 degreees out).

You ASSUME that
the rebuilt IP is in fact serviceable....fuel passages not clogged with paint or stuff like that.

The part about starting on ether and roaring to life, then having difficulty maintaining idle and finally dying....IP trying to keep rpm up but fuel starvation?


- is there fuel flow from the tank to the primary and secondary filters and to the IP? You said "yes", but at what pressure? Plumb in a pressure gauge. In tank hose not collapsing, in tank pump running?
- is there fuel flow from the HH to all 6 injectors? When you loosen the injector lines and wrap them with paper shop towels and crank the starter, are all shop towels getting equally wet?

If after checking all that "cattlerepairman" said to check and you don't get any improvement, then your problem could be in the pump itself. There is a "spyder" that has a set amount of limiting twist to it to prevent damage to the pump and to lessen the amount of "hunting" during sudden acceleration and deceleration. If this unit is worn out then it could cause this problem as it is basically "spinning" on the camshaft.

 

[Bloodmike]

Well too late Rusty, I only loosened them a 1/4 turn to see if the shut off had less restriction. It didn't, so I tightened it back up and re-safety wired it. The weather here is iffy right now, but the next step is a pressure gauge. Is there ANY way that the pump marks can line up with the balancer mark and still be 180 out? I would settle for the 950 rpm if it started on its own. It's a fresh pump from C&C, I also called them and they did try to help, their main mechanic is out for 2 weeks on vacation, just my luck. As for Cattlerepairmans list, I lined up all the marks, installed the pump gear, and double checked the marks were still good and buttoned it up. I tried starting it with no luck. It started with ether and thats when the hunting started, I adjusted the idle and the hunting settled, still won't start on its own. From there I retimed the engine and pump and pulled the valve cover to check the #1 valve, and they were closed. So with that, I felt it was safe to say I installed it correctly. I spent some time reading about governor adjustments. I adjusted the droop screw a 1/4 turn to see if that helped, it didn't, so I put it back to factory. I checked the fuel lines to see if anything was pinching them, everything is pinch free. When talking with the guys at C&C, I asked them of the possibility of getting a defective pump, they said it was a very slim chance, and they acquired them from Bousch back in 2016. I cracked each injector line, and each had a healthy spray. Well rusty, I may have to dig into the spyder next, I'm just running out off things to check and patience are running low......

 

[SETOYOTA]

Buddies truck did they same thing. It was the pump,

 

[rustystud]

Well too late Rusty, I only loosened them a 1/4 turn to see if the shut off had less restriction. It didn't, so I tightened it back up and re-safety wired it. The weather here is iffy right now, but the next step is a pressure gauge. Is there ANY way that the pump marks can line up with the balancer mark and still be 180 out? I would settle for the 950 rpm if it started on its own. It's a fresh pump from C&C, I also called them and they did try to help, their main mechanic is out for 2 weeks on vacation, just my luck. As for Cattlerepairmans list, I lined up all the marks, installed the pump gear, and double checked the marks were still good and buttoned it up. I tried starting it with no luck. It started with ether and thats when the hunting started, I adjusted the idle and the hunting settled, still won't start on its own. From there I retimed the engine and pump and pulled the valve cover to check the #1 valve, and they were closed. So with that, I felt it was safe to say I installed it correctly. I spent some time reading about governor adjustments. I adjusted the droop screw a 1/4 turn to see if that helped, it didn't, so I put it back to factory. I checked the fuel lines to see if anything was pinching them, everything is pinch free. When talking with the guys at C&C, I asked them of the possibility of getting a defective pump, they said it was a very slim chance, and they acquired them from Bousch back in 2016. I cracked each injector line, and each had a healthy spray. Well rusty, I may have to dig into the spyder next, I'm just running out off things to check and patience are running low......

Sorry to hear that. The pumps back half must be almost completely torn-down to get to that "spyder" . At this point I don't know what else could be causing the hunting problem. My money was on a fuel problem at first. But you do have adequate fuel pressure and flow correct ? That really narrows it down to timing and the pump itself. I found rebuilding my pumps that there isn't any "shim kits" available for the "spyder" anymore. I had to take shims from other pumps to properly set-up the ones I rebuilt. I've found it takes about four used pumps to make one good pump, since your robbing parts off the others. Also all the "spyders" I checked needed to be adjusted. There is a few pages devoted to this in the TM since it is that important. I have no idea what the rebuilding process was like when they rebuilt your pump, but if they couldn't get the shims I could see them just using the "spyder" as is and hoping for the best.

 

[Floridianson]

When I time the Deuce I watch the #1 intake open then close. Just because it was closed when you took off the valve cover does not mean anything other than it is closed.
Get old and forgetting things but thought Gimpy had found the easy way to tell if the timing mark for #1 was on TDC. Thought if #1 was on compression stroke and all #1 valves are closed then #2 exhaust would be open. This way you don't have to remove valve cover just look down oil fill valve cover hole and look and the valve that is forward of the hole is #2 exhaust.

 

[gringeltaube]

.............
................Thought if #1 was on compression stroke and all #1 valves are closed then #2 exhaust would be open. This way you don't have to remove valve cover just look down oil fill valve cover hole and look and the valve that is forward of the hole is #2 exhaust.

That is correct. And a nice shortcut, too!

 

[gimpyrobb]

That is correct, and that is how his valves were.

 

[gringeltaube]

I had no doubt about it. if timing was 360° off it would smoke totally different! (been there, done it...)

 

[Wildchild467]

I had a problem a couple months ago with the motor in my deuce hunting for idle. I had replaced all the orings on the shut off rod and HH. Turns out the orings on the fuel shut off rod was a little bigger than the stock one. I loosened the two screws on the shut off rod retainer just a tad and it cured the issue. It might be worth checking the shut off rod, I might add that it seemed to move freely when initially checked but but there was just enough resistance to not let it function correctly. Here's a link to my thread, in case you hadn't run across it already in your searches.

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?164579-Idle-Low-RPM-Issues&highlight=

I had the same issue and this is what fixed it. Also make sure you have the correct o-ring in there to seal the shut off shaft. some reason the best one I could get to fit was the OEM military one. Anyway, of those two screws are too tight it will make it hunt.

Honestly, I think its my deuce just telling me it wants a 4-71 Detroit under the hood.