Cooling upgrade system.

[Sintorion]

Where can I find the data on the flow changes across the block as well as temperature reductions in the rear of the block? What impact does this have on the overall flow? Drawing from this point must redirect flow to another part of the block? How do you know that you are not robbing coolant from another part of the block/heads? As the law states for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. I would be shocked if simply pulling coolant from a point is a magic bullet with no adverse effects. Especially if this is a shade tree fix without the support of detailed testing and empirical data to back it up.

 

[Mario]

Joe, I'm reading this thread but it's now 11 pages long.
Can you point me to information &/or pictures as to the cost of the kit and installation requirements?

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[TOBASH]

Joe, I'm reading this thread but it's now 11 pages long.
Can you point me to information &/or pictures as to the cost of the kit and installation requirements?

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Might I make a recommendation?

Edit your first post. Add your contact information and price and pictures and installation instructions.

ALSO add a link to the classifieds section /advertisement. Place an add in the classifieds for those who want to purchase with contact information and pricing and maybe an order form or PayPal link.

MHO...YMMV

Best,

T

 

[911joeblow]

Thanks for the recommendations guys. I am working on a web page but until then I will email the V2 Instructions and any additional info requested in a PM. The kits are also for sale on EBAY for those who want to buy there. I do sell it directly cheaper to SS members. PayPal is the preferred method of payment.

All kits are shipped minus two SS members I need addresses for that I have email or PMed. Thanks!

 

[Mario]

I didn't get a PM fro you, yet.

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

 

[911joeblow]

Guys, I can send the install instructions but only to your personal email so PM that info and I will get it out. Thanks!

 

[Sintorion]

Still waiting to see some actual unbiased test results. This is starting to look like snake oil. It reminds me of one of those throttle body spacers that because it doesn't have a negative effect that people think it is doing something. Joe claims that the hoses and fittings were specifically sized to optimize the benefit. If that is the case then there should be a lot of data to support these claims. This high level engineer should be able to show us measurable temperature changes across the block as well as explain how those changes address the over heating problem without sacrificing elsewhere. Not disparaging Joe, I think he is just a believer that packaged together some pretty hoses and fittings and trying to make a few dollars.

Seems to me that with all the negative press GM has with the over heating issue that if it was as simple as slapping together some hoses that they would have done so and issued a TSB rather than getting a black eye. I am not from Missouri, but before I spend time and money on a gimmick, I need someone to show me proof that it works.

 

[911joeblow]

Providing unbiased data means you would not trust any data I provide. Therefore I will stand by my testing and subsequent results and let the community of users provide you the 'unbiased' data on thier own. However I very much doubt that anything save GM offering the kits directly would convince you. I get it, if GM did not address the issue than it must not have been fixable. But the reality is that this is an all to common occurrence in the automotive industry. Problems go unreported, recalls are avoided and liability is not admitted. Could GM have fixed the issue, sure but they chose not too or simply left it knowing another engine was in the works.

Reading back through this thread it is clear to me that every question has been answered with details and specifics that more than explane the dynamics involved. No snake oil, just good old common sense of how coolant flows in these engines and does not. If you don't understand the logic then let's clear it up for you. Ask a question and you will get an answer. Accusing me of selling snake oil is not going to get you any closer to understanding why the system works, unless that is not your desire at all?

 

[Sintorion]

No offense, but you have not posted any specs. The only results that have been posted were by someone that bought the kit and they were not exactly favorable. Your response that his increased temps kind of go against your theory and your response that it is normal to see increased temps in the area that you are attempting to cool seems odd and not exactly scientific. You claim that the hose was specifically sized, but provided no support for that claim with flow rates, pressure, volume, or temps. Unless there is a restriction somewhere in the system that you are relieving, you can't just start pulling coolant from the back and not have an adverse effect. I assume that the coolant you are siphoning off was going somewhere. What happens to the block down stream of this flow? It didn't need that flow and temps stay the same? So many possibilities that need to be answered before determining if this is actually providing value or just a waste of money. While I don't think your product causes harm, I am not seeing the benefit other than you saying so. Considering you are the guy making probably around $150 per set, I have a hard time accepting the "It works because I said so" line.

 

[ryanruck]

Sintorion,
Let me preface this with I've got no connection to 911joeblow and no dog in this fight except I bought one of the kits. I don't get anything from anyone buying a kit.

The type of test results you're expecting are only going to come from an engineering department with many thousands of dollars of test gear with internal temperature and flow rate sensors and multiple test mule engines in various configurations. I gave data best available to me. A sample of one is admittedly a poor sample but I wanted to offer what I could to the discussion. While not mentioning my review specifically, you've referred to it and said it was not favorable. That's not exactly correct... My temp readings, which were rudimentary at best, did show something anomalous. What they mean exactly is hard to say without having one of those test labs. I can't take temp readings inside the engine or in coolant passages so I used what I had at my disposal. You're also overlooking the more important part of my review which were the other observable results, namely reduced fan run time which would be a good indicator of more efficient and effective cooling.

911joeblow isn't reinventing the wheel here. These kits have been available in one form or another for a long time for the H1. He's only got a different take on it that doesn't involve the heater loop and thinks may offer a more efficient solution than the other similar kits. I had looked at the other kits and didn't think at the time that based off their price and how they worked they were worth it to me so I didn't buy one. 911joeblow brought a different take on that solution to the table at a lower price point so I took advantage of it.

Even if 911joeblow was making $150 a set (and I doubt that considering there's about $100 worth of just fittings, not including the other materials, plus his time to assemble them) so what? His price for these is still lower than the other offerings out there which are sure to be bringing in a larger profit margin.

And you're never going to see anything to address this from GM since the Hummer has been dead to them for 11 years now. There are TONS of cars out there with well known issues the manufacturers never address for one reason or another. Usually the only time engineering issues are addressed is when there is threat of litigation from them and the bean counters tell the engineers to fix them. Ever see the scene in the movie Fight Club with Ed Norton talking about recalls as part of his job? About like that... Ask a 3rd gen Toyota 4runner owner how well Toyota took care of the well known "strawberry milkshake" issue when the engine cooling and transmission cooling loops corrode and mix the fluids, potentially toasting the transmission.

Buy one or don't... I'm not a degreed engineer or ASE certified mechanic, just the shadetree variety and someone with a bit of a technical/troubleshooting based background but personally, I like the relatively cheap insurance and benefits based off what the kit is designed to do and what I'm seeing and, as I mentioned in my post, I can transfer it to my turbo engine which would benefit from it even more when I upgrade my truck to that. It looks like you're not convinced it does anything. Okay. Sounds like this isn't for you. We got it. Might be for other folks though so no need to beat a dead horse.


(PS: Throttle body/carb spacers actually do affect performance of an engine allowing you to vary intake volume and fuel/air mixing. Having the right spacing can give a reasonable increase in performance to help squeeze every last bit of performance out of an engine and, having the wrong spacing can negatively affect performance. No offense, but given that part of your post, I'm going to guess you're not the worlds biggest gear head...)

 

[Sintorion]

Ryan, you are free to believe whatever you want. I base my beliefs on facts and not marketing and gimmicks. Joe has not produced a single bit of data supporting his claims. He has made a claim of removing stagnant coolant. I would love to know how he determines that. Seems to me that if it was stagnant that adding a hose to that would do nothing because it is stagnant. Unless there was some sort of venturi effect. Before you put a band aid on a problem, you need to know where the cause is.

Your tests as rudimentary as they are, are still more than anything the guy selling these has posted. The fact that they are not what would be expected should set off alarms that maybe there is a reason that this approach hasn't been used.

As for manufacturers, they issue TSBs all the time. A problem like this, if it could be fixed with couple of fittings and a few sections of hose, I am reasonably sure they would do so. As a former Toyota 3.0 owner as well as a 3rd gen 4runner owner, I am fully aware the auto industry. This isn't a new problem that has started occurring on high mileage motors. I assume you know that there is a difference between a TSB and a recall.

I never claimed to be the worlds biggest gear head. Just someone who wants to see data before throwing away money on a gimmick. I learned long ago from my street racing days that adding bigger pipe doesn't necessarily equal performance. Kind of shocked that you would make the spacer connection, but jump head first into the bandwagon of this gimmick without needing to see data that shows that you are actually getting some benefit from running extra hose.

Again, until I see some actual data I will remain skeptical.

 

[MaverickH1]

I'm in the same boat as Sintorion.

But I'll ask some questions of things I don't know.

1) Which direction does the coolant flow out of the engine? Does it flow from the T-stat into the radiator?
2) Where is the temperature sensor that is controlling the glow plugs located in this flow?
3) Where is the temperature sensor that is controlling the radiator fan that actuates at 220 degrees F?
4) Where is the temperature sensor that feeds the temperature gage?

2 through 4 might be the same sensor.

Maybe GM doesn't care about the Hummer anymore, but they and GEP cared a lot about the 6.5 at one time. They went through several block design changes, several supporting part changes, and many changes were made specifically to increase cooling at the rear of the engine. As an engineer in the automotive industry, I have nearly zero doubt that they would have preferred to add some hoses instead of changing block designs and a lot of the supporting parts designs and tooling.

The defense often used in this thread is simply that this method is used in automotive racing. I'll just say there are a lot of changes made to race engines, and many of them only increase the performance or reliability at the very high ends of use. It doesn't always translate to ruggedness in typical automotive use.

For an example of what might be happening and one of the fears I have, it's possible that this is increasing the flow of coolant to the rear and decreasing coolant flow to the radiator. It's possible that this creates a cooling effect for the rear, but actually robs volumetric flow through the radiator to accomplish this. This will make the coolant flowing through the radiator appear to be cooler due to a lower flow through the radiator (and thus a longer dwell time in the radiator of the low volume flow through it), and could result in the fan coming on less. This sounds like a win until it's known that you're doing a lot more of circulating hot coolant through the engine and possibly superheating it.

I want to believe, but I just haven't seen the definitive proof yet.

That said, I admire the initiative to get out and do this, Joe. I think you believe you're helping people. I don't doubt your hard work. View this dialogue as a chance to prove me wrong and add another customer. It might not be worth the labor, though.

 

[ryanruck]

Sintorion,
The thing is, joe isn't the only one saying it's an issue. He's just saying he's got a different take on the solution for an apparent problem reported by people than what others have come up with.

What are your thoughts on the kits offered by Predator for $850? Or the Flash Off-Road kit for $345?

Not sure why you're expecting any sort of manufacturer/dealer level support on a piece of military surplus. AMG doesn't like dealing with non-government sales and has never been supportive of HMMWVs in private hands and, GM pretty much only wanted the Hummer brand for it's popularity and killed that off a while ago. TSB, recall, whatever... It isn't coming from AMG, GM, or anyone in any way shape or form for a truck discontinued more than a decade ago let alone one 20+ years old and sold as surplus. We're on our own to support these trucks.

Maybe GM doesn't care about the Hummer anymore, but they and GEP cared a lot about the 6.5 at one time. They went through several block design changes, several supporting part changes, and many changes were made specifically to increase cooling at the rear of the engine. As an engineer in the automotive industry, I have nearly zero doubt that they would have preferred to add some hoses instead of changing block designs and a lot of the supporting parts designs and tooling.

Maybe they did want to address it but, couldn't because the end user (.gov) thought it could add an unnecessary failure point with not enough reward for the risk. Maybe, as I think I mentioned before, .gov didn't care about a small increase in reliability when they've got warehouses with so many BNIB and refurb engines in crates they sell them off surplus all the time. We just don't know what went on behind the scenes.

What we do know is that the original 6.5Ts had issues with #8 cylinder cracking due to poor cooling. To the point where engines were being replaced in H1s with no cost to the owners in many cases with no official TSB, recall, or otherwise. I remember the posts from the old HML days. The kits from places like Predator, Flash, and others were designed to address this. The 6.2s and the non-GEP 6.5s many of our trucks come with are of a block design similar to the original 6.5Ts and, while they don't see the temperatures turbo engines do, still have the same inherent cooling issue. Perhaps, like you mention, with the changes GEP made to the block, they DO have changes designed to reduce the problem internally that the previously mentioned engines don't. Admittedly, I don't know this and unless we had engineering drawings or could do a side-by-side teardown/cutaway it's hard to say.

Personally, $275 isn't that big a deal to me and spending it to take care of what is a known design flaw in my generation engine is okay by me. Especially compared to other solutions on the market for the same issue for $345, let alone $850.

As always, YMMV and my is worth exactly what you paid for it.

 

[MaverickH1]

Sintorion,
The thing is, joe isn't the only one saying it's an issue. He's just saying he's got a different take on the solution for an apparent problem reported by people than what others have come up with.

What are your thoughts on the kits offered by Predator for $850? Or the Flash Off-Road kit for $345?

Not sure why you're expecting any sort of manufacturer/dealer level support on a piece of military surplus. AMG doesn't like dealing with non-government sales and has never been supportive of HMMWVs in private hands and, GM pretty much only wanted the Hummer brand for it's popularity and killed that off a while ago. TSB, recall, whatever... It isn't coming from AMG, GM, or anyone in any way shape or form for a truck discontinued more than a decade ago let alone one 20+ years old and sold as surplus. We're on our own to support these trucks.




Maybe they did want to address it but, couldn't because the end user (.gov) thought it could add an unnecessary failure point with not enough reward for the risk. Maybe, as I think I mentioned before, .gov didn't care about a small increase in reliability when they've got warehouses with so many BNIB and refurb engines in crates they sell them off surplus all the time. We just don't know what went on behind the scenes.

What we do know is that the original 6.5Ts had issues with #8 cylinder cracking due to poor cooling. To the point where engines were being replaced in H1s with no cost to the owners in many cases with no official TSB, recall, or otherwise. I remember the posts from the old HML days. The kits from places like Predator, Flash, and others were designed to address this. The 6.2s and the non-GEP 6.5s many of our trucks come with are of a block design similar to the original 6.5Ts and, while they don't see the temperatures turbo engines do, still have the same inherent cooling issue. Perhaps, like you mention, with the changes GEP made to the block, they DO have changes designed to reduce the problem internally that the previously mentioned engines don't. Admittedly, I don't know this and unless we had engineering drawings or could do a side-by-side teardown/cutaway it's hard to say.

Personally, $275 isn't that big a deal to me and spending it to take care of what is a known design flaw in my generation engine is okay by me. Especially compared to other solutions on the market for the same issue for $345, let alone $850.

As always, YMMV and my is worth exactly what you paid for it.

I think you're making good points, and a bit of it is Chicken vs the Egg. Personally, I wouldn't purchase any of the other kits either. For the same reason that I'm weary of this one AND the outrageous cost of the others.

I prefer known problems as opposed to unknown problems. I think this might create unknown problems. That's really all there is to it for me at the moment.

 

[ryanruck]

I think you're making good points, and a bit of it is Chicken vs the Egg. Personally, I wouldn't purchase any of the other kits either. For the same reason that I'm weary of this one AND the outrageous cost of the others.

I prefer known problems as opposed to unknown problems. I think this might create unknown problems. That's really all there is to it for me at the moment.

That's definitely a fair point, which at least comes across to me, more specific than what it seemed Sintorion was implying in that these were some money making scheme on joe's part (or maybe just didn't word clearly enough to convey differently?). Rest assured I'll report any long term issues and I'm definitely no stranger to putting miles on my truck but, given how similar kits have been going in H1s for a while I'm really not expecting anything unusual.

 

[Sintorion]

I never said that I thought that Joe was knowingly selling something that he knew was worthless. I think he is convinced that it is a performance improvement. I have been simply asking for the proof that it adds a benefit with factual data that supports this claim. Merely selling a product that someone else makes and sells for a much higher price does not make it work. I don't see any data on their sites either to support their claims either. Until I see some data support by testing methodology, I see this in the same light as the tornado and fuel line magnets.

 

[ryanruck]

I never said that I thought that Joe was knowingly selling something that he knew was worthless. I think he is convinced that it is a performance improvement. I have been simply asking for the proof that it adds a benefit with factual data that supports this claim. Merely selling a product that someone else makes and sells for a much higher price does not make it work. I don't see any data on their sites either to support their claims either. Until I see some data support by testing methodology, I see this in the same light as the tornado and fuel line magnets.

Okay, I get you now. What I'm saying is it's not a fair comparison because those were solutions to non-existant problems promising unrealistic results. Where as, here, the original block design of this engine family did actually suffer from a real world design flaw resulting in cracked #8 cylinders and, joe isn't promising his improvement is so efficient your cooling fan will never need to turn on again.

Supposedly block revisions improved the strength to resist the cracking but we don't know that the actual underlying issue that caused the cracking, namely poor cooling due to insufficient cooling flow, was ever addressed and it certainly wasn't addressed on blocks cast from the original design, like my 6.2. We also know that pumping fluid into a dead end space isn't the most efficient way to flow a liquid though it will certainly still conduct some heat away. That's all that joe's and all the other kits seek to do, improve cooling flow.

Supposedly you can improve cooling flow just bolting on a second cooling crossover for not much more than the cost of pulling one from your local scrap yard and your time putting it on. And I'd bet it does help some. Maybe that's something you might want to check into. Again, anything would seem to be better than pumping fluid into the dead space at the ends of the heads there is now. Joe just seems to think, based on his work, his solution is more efficient than just bolting on a second crossover or tying it into the heater loop like the other kits out there. He explained his design logic well enough for me. Even though the $275 for joe's kit wasn't a huge deal for me, I'm a notorious cheapskate and if I thought I could accomplish the same thing joe's kit does snagging a second crossover and adding a little more elbow grease to pull it and put it on my engine, I'd do that. I think though, from my understanding, even while installing a second crossover would be better you still wouldn't be changing much because the block design would still be pumping coolant to the ends of both of those heads. The coolant would just get stagnant at the center of that crossover now instead. What joe's kit is doing is bringing that coolant back up to the front instead of it just being continually pumped to the rear. Now if you tied that rear crossover to your front crossover so the coolant in that could come back up front, that may be a different story and that's what joe's kit seems to do. Of course, I stand to be corrected on all that...

 

[ryanruck]

Okay, I wasn't actually planning on spending this much time on this but, since I like pikchurs (and I wanted to try out my new avatar!) I figured I'd do up this sketch to show what I was trying to describe in words my understanding of the cooling flow in each situation.



I think I've got a good brain but I'm always ready for someone with a gooder brain to set me straight.

 

[Action]

Someone said the temp got higher at the rear with the kit . Someone said the fan didn't come on as much. Someone said the flow through the radiator can be less with the kit resulting in higher engine temps (which goes back to the first sentence). Maybe flow across the sensor for the fan is also being reduced which is why the fan doesn't come on as much. Or maybe it was just a change in humidity outside that affected the fan not coming on as much.
Anyone ever buy that simonize for $699 when they bought a new car. And now nothing will ever stick to or happen to the paint?

 

[juanprado]

I never said that I thought that Joe was knowingly selling something that he knew was worthless. I think he is convinced that it is a performance improvement. I have been simply asking for the proof that it adds a benefit with factual data that supports this claim. Merely selling a product that someone else makes and sells for a much higher price does not make it work. I don't see any data on their sites either to support their claims either. Until I see some data support by testing methodology, I see this in the same light as the tornado and fuel line magnets.

Ah, In my parts selling days, those tornadoes and magnets made me money Those were high profit gizmos that people had no problem putting down money on. Just like the gazilluion different fuzzy dice I had. Had almost a 4 ft gondola of that dice crap & the smelly crowns etc....

Back to topic, I am hard pressed to see how this can hurt by adding different cooling paths and can only be an improvement in my simple non engineer shady tree mind.