Shim the starter question - 12 V

[biped]

My 1009 ate a starter in 2 years. I just replaced it and getting same empty "click" sound (sometimes 6 or more times) before contact and truck starts. Sometimes it starts first time but occasionally there is nothing but a click. I think it's shims. It doesn't have any. I'm back under it tomorrow and looking for too much gap or not enough gap. What else could it be?

Biped

 

[cucvrus]

Where is the click coming from? The click has nothing to do with shims. Shim's just move the starter away from the flywheel ring gear. No shims puts it closer. Do you have a new starter? If it is 2 years old it could still be bad. And a dead spot on the armature could do that click you here is the solenoid engaging but the starter is not spinning to engage and allow the solenoid to spin out.

 

[biped]

What is solution if armature is problem? I have new GM starter but it exhibits same problem as previous rebuilt one. Click seems to come from starter. Some teeth of rebuilt I returned to Autozone were messed up.

Biped

 

[OGMurph]

Sounds like a chipped flex plate. You need to pull the starter and look at the teeth in the engine. Might need to fix that... Then look back at the starter situation. You should bench test the starter while you have it down off the car...

Then if you have a working starter with good teeth.. and a healthy flex plate. You're closer to success.

 

[cucvrus]

Is this a clicking sound or a harsh grinding sound you are hearing? They call the grinding sound flywheel milling. Do you have a rear starter support bracket in place? A few notes I found on the subject.
Quite the common problem that stems from the high compression engine stopping in one of four spots when turned off. These four spots show excess wear on the few teeth of the ring gear where the starter hits it. Usually there are five or six teeth that show wear, chipping, grinding, etc., marks.

The correction is to remove the transmission, just back far enough to get a breaker bar/long handled wrench in there to remove the flexplate to crankshaft bolts. Replace the flexplate, loc-tite blue on the bolts.

I'd replace the starter drive at the same time as those teeth will probably show some wear, chipping as well. Use a good quality starter drive. I buy nothing but AC Delco. Be sure the starter bolts are the correct size for the diesel starter (not the same as a gas engine bolt). Get them snug and install the nose brace on the front of the starter that bolts to the block. It's an absolute must-have item unless you want broken starter bolts. If the brace isn't there, buy, beg, borrow or fabricate one!

The starter bolts are metric M10 1.5 Buy GM ones they are still available. The flex-plate is less then $50. you can replace the flex-plate by sliding the transmission back some 4" grade 8 - 3/8" bolts. That saves the hassle of removing the transmission. You will need to dis-connect everything just like you are removing it. But not remove it. Much easier and 1 man can do it in a few hours.

My guess is if the teeth on the starter are getting chewed up you have flex-plate issues. Shims are something I have not had to use. Most starters are embossed No Shim. If you do use shims use un-slotted shims. Make sure you have GM bolts with the hatch marks and a good starter support bracket in place and tight. The bolt hole in the block at the starter support is also metric M8 1.25. I hope this is helpful. I know how it is to have these issues. I bought a few trucks extra cheap because of the re occurring issue. Good Luck and report back. Happy to help.

 

[dependable]

I recently replaced a starter with one of the cheap import gear drives, and it occasionally clicks, sometimes many times before engauging. I think it is a weak solenoid and or poorly formed starter teeth. Twice this season, it would not engage at all, so there is now a breaker bar in truck with a 15/16 socket to turn the motor a few degrees (at harmonic ballencer).

I'll change it out next time that one is on the lift.

 

[cucvrus]

Why is turning the motor helpful? Are you missing teeth on the flex-plate/ring gear? This clicking sound are you referring to grinding? That is why I ask how turning the engine manually corrects the clicking starter. And can you picture poorly formed starter teeth. That is new. Never heard that before. Loose connections at the batteries/bussbar and starter can also have this same effect. Also the starter relay and a slightly burnt thru fusible link. Most times it is the starter be it a new Delco Remy direct drive or a Chinese GR. Many factors can take their toll on the best of starters. Low amperage batteries are the biggest killer of starters. That and trucks that are NOT maintained properly and start horrible when cold. If you have a good starter and batteries with a truck that cold starts and runs as designed. You will not need to address starter issues for a long time. If you hack into the electrical system with butt connectors and poor ill fitting loose connections. That is the second known cause of starter/electrical issues. Good clean tight connections are key to a healthy starting/electrical system. Good Luck.

 

[dependable]

Nothing wrong with electrical, all original, no grinding. Starter drive runs out and clicks. The couple of times it did not engage, even a slave jump off another 24V CUCV with Hawkers did not help. There may be a slight worn spot on flex plate, but I doubt it, knowing the history of truck. If I get around to changing out the starter, I'll take a closer look. Just guessing cheap solenoid, or starter drive.

Regrettably, I have a business to run, and lots of other machines to keep going too, not just the CUCVs. Oh well, break over, back to billing the customers.

 

[biped]

My local expert thinks one of my battery cables is under spec for the CUCV. He is fabricating a heavy duty cable. I'll know more Monday. Volts sucked down to 8 when starting. That's low per my expert and sometimes not enough to get armature spinning.

More later.

Biped

 

[MarcusOReallyus]

Yeah, that's low, but that's what happens when you convert to 12v and don't upgrade the cables. 24v needs smaller cables than 12v for the same amperage.

 

[cucvrus]

My local expert thinks one of my battery cables is under spec for the CUCV. He is fabricating a heavy duty cable. I'll know more Monday. Volts sucked down to 8 when starting. That's low per my expert and sometimes not enough to get armature spinning.

More later.

Biped

My 1009 ate a starter in 2 years.

That will do it. Low amperage is the cause of many failures on vehicles. That is the No. 1 cause of the stock starter relay failure. I seen these trucks sitting around on the bases and always getting jump started because of low batteries. That is hard on the entire starting system. Now throw the 12 volt conversion into the mix and you have a whole new comedy of errors and issues. I converted 1 back to 24 volt. I bought that one and had no choice. Wires were cut and taped off. They had all the buss bar removed and all home made battery cables on an M1028. What a mess it was. Fortunately for me I had a wrecked M1009 and just swapped the entire wiring harness. It was not my initial plan. But the wire cutting went on and on. Under the hood with glow plug bypass and under the dash with stereo, power points and driving lights. So I know the pain you are feeling.

 

[biped]

Not a home run. Got bigger cables. Volts upon starting would drop to 8 & 9. Now 10 & 11 volts. Something was accomplished but I still get the occasional click instead of ignition when I turn the key.

 

[OGMurph]

So i have done the same thing on a 12v system so lets try to walk this through together. There is not much inline between your battery and starter. You turn the key and the ignition system works.. and the starter relay works. it almost has to be a bad battery or starter that isnt working. do you have a load tester? there available on amazon for cheap.. ive got one.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000CONUF6/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1

The starter circuit should still 100% apply unless your conversion is unlike the couple ive seen..

https://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?129483-CUCV-Starter-Circuit

So i know these are a bitch to read but there shouldnt be much between you turn the key and getting joy with the sounds your hearing.. and if you are chipping your flex plate thats a different issue and because of the abuse your starter is doing.

Pulling the starter isnt hard.. i can do it in my sleep now with my issues. the two starter bolts and the starter bracket from the casing of the engine and the battery wire and the purple ignition wire . once you have it down we can bench test it. So you get jumper cables and you get 1 good battery after you test it to make sure it can not only take a charge but handle a starting load.. and in your case because your batteries could be wired in parallel instead of Series.. you would need to test both alone...

 

[cucvrus]

Once again. Are we all sure you have good load tested batteries that can take a good load. have them checked with a good load tester and check the voltage and amps after the load test. I have a small computer type that you enter the type of battery and the CCA and iy proceeds to load test. it may pass the load test but it will still show reduced amps. That is a problem. I always test a charged battery. A discharged battery of course will fail every time. Many times my tester says charge battery and retest before it even starts testing. That is a good indication most times. At least you can be assured it is a good high amperage battery. The volts mean little. Low Amperage is a mass killer of starter relays and starters. Take it or leave it. I just wanted to share my experience. Also make sure your engine is properly grounded top the buss bar or directly to the - of the battery. Good Luck. Report back.

 

[The FLU farm]

I recently got thrown for a loop using a load tester (the cheap kind) on a set of Optima Group 31s.
Three of the four passed the test, but as it turned out, they were no good. Or at least not good enough.
At one point we had a total of eight Optima Group 31s hooked up, six of them through a very beefy military jumper cable, two in the vehicle that wouldn't turn over properly.
I was confused big time, because nothing got hot. Not the starter, not the connections, nothing. Where did all that energy go??

Before buying a new starter I decided to try with different battery cables (the smaller originals from that vehicle) and two other batteries. It fired up as if on 48 Volts, and it's a 12 Volt system. Moved things around again and it turned out to be the batteries, not the cables, that did the trick.

Lesson learned; don't trust a regular load tester on large batteries.
In retrospect it all made perfect sense that nothing got hot. All the energy somehow got dissipated in the two bad batteries. I now refer to those two as black holes.