New M1009, stuck starter, replaced with DH relay, won't start

[ofmyownaccord]

I bought the M1009 last week and the starter decided to runaway on me yesterday in a Petsmart parking lot. Luckily I knew about this problem and I was ready. It was stuck for less than 20 seconds before I had disconnected both batteries and stopped the starter. There was NO smoke, NO burning smell, battery terminals were still good. I had the blazer towed to my place of work. Kept both batteries disconnected and let it sit until I could work on it today.

This evening, I bought the Prime Line 7-01860-1 solenoid and replaced the broken stock relay. Noticed that the stock relay had just barely begun to melt right at the solid purple wire. None of the wires were melted, they all still had individual strands of copper. So I wired it identical to the pictures I found on here. Connected the batteries and the starter didn't immediately run away....so that was good. Turned the key and nothing. Heard the new solenoid clicking but it just barely tried to crank over. I checked the batteries with my multimeter and both have 12+ volts. Then I ran out of daylight and needed to feed the dog so I called it quits.

I figured I would take each battery out and charge them tomorrow with my power pack. Maybe they'd have enough juice to crank over. If that doesn't work, I was thinking of pulling the starter and taking it to a shop to be inspected/repaired in case the solenoid welded itself together. What about fusible links?

I'm just a young guy with his first project truck. I've tried to research and have read a lot of these threads but half the pages I find on search lead to dead ends and can't be loaded. So please don't jump down my throat. I know this is common problem but I have no idea what to do next.

Thanks for any help or hints in the right direction. Also, if anyone is in Southern CA [San Gabriel Valley] and super knowledgeable about CUCV's, I'd buy a case of beer if you're willing to help. I work in horse racing so I could also get you tickets to Del Mar or Santa Anita.

 

[porkysplace]

First thing to do is fully charge the batteries , they should read between 13.7 and 14.7 volts, anything under 12.6 volts isn't good.

 

[Matt5]

No battery when charged should be over 12.8, a battery at 12.6 volts is about 95% state of charge...

OP, did you ever check for power while cranking out of the new relay, at the starter, etc etc... ya you need 2 people to check the cranking no reason to start pulling things apart until you make sure you are getting power (and the correct voltage) at the starter. Maybe the relay on the starter burned up... maybe your new relay is junk... or maybe something else. That is the way I would start after checking battery power however 12+ (please tell us 12.X next time) should be enough to start it anyway as long as the batteries are good (12+ sitting could go down to nothing with a load, surface charge only tells us battery state of charge not capacity you need a load test to tell capacity, you can do this with a load tester or the glow plugs give a good load... check voltage with glow plugs on however the batteries should be fine under load as the vehicle was in use recently)

 

[porkysplace]

No battery when charged should be over 12.8, a battery at 12.6 volts is about 95% state of charge...

OP, did you ever check for power while cranking out of the new relay, at the starter, etc etc... ya you need 2 people to check the cranking no reason to start pulling things apart until you make sure you are getting power (and the correct voltage) at the starter. Maybe the relay on the starter burned up... maybe your new relay is junk... or maybe something else. That is the way I would start after checking battery power however 12+ (please tell us 12.X next time) should be enough to start it anyway as long as the batteries are good (12+ sitting could go down to nothing with a load, surface charge only tells us battery state of charge not capacity you need a load test to tell capacity, you can do this with a load tester or the glow plugs give a good load... check voltage with glow plugs on however the batteries should be fine under load as the vehicle was in use recently)

12.6 volts

Fully charged automotive batteries should measure at 12.6 volts or above. When the engine is running, this measurement should be 13.7 to 14.7 volts. If you don't have a multimeter to tell you the voltage of your battery, you can do a test of your electrical system by starting the car and turning on the headlights.

From
https://www.autobatteries.com/en-us/battery-testing-and-maintenance/car-battery-voltage-and-testing

 

[Matt5]

The ops vehicle does not run, so a running voltage is not helpful right now, I do not need a copy paste from a questionable website thanks... Again, 12.6 volts is about 95% state of charge. 13.7 - 14.7 = ALTERNATOR testing... not battery. If you like attached is a chart for state of charge... if OP is in the green (I would like 12.2 or more at least), we can continue testing... once the vehicle is *running* 13.7 - 14.7 can be used to make sure the alternators are charging.

 

[ofmyownaccord]

Thanks for the replies. I'm pretty sure I read both batteries were at 12.6 and they had previously started the truck everyday with no issue for the 1 week I've had it so far. haha


Tomorrow I'll do a load test and also check the voltage at the starter. I have a jumpstart power pack that I keep in my main truck. Is there a way to hook it up safely so I can jumpstart the Blazer? Or would it be better to charge each one individually throughout the day? Would swapping front and back do anything?

 

[Matt5]

If the batteries were at 12.6 you are already "fully charged" (or close enough), the only possibility with the voltage being that high are bad batteries (no capacity), it just worked the other day so the odds of failing a load test are about 100000:1 they have the power to crank for 20 seconds and still show 12.6 volts however doing a load test is not a bad idea. (even just key on and look at your battery gauge in truck truck when the glow plugs hit)

You can't charge a battery with a jump pack (not sure what you mean by "power pack", the reason your alternator runs at 13.7 volts + is to charge the battery, same reason why a battery charger runs higher than 12.8 volts. If ONE battery is low, you can use the jump pack to boost it but, best thing to do is charge the batteries if they are low (again 12.6 is like 95% charged)

You could key on the truck and jump the starter with the pack directly, if you can get to the terminals (can't say I've ever had to do that OR would)

You did say "but it just barely tried to crank over"... if this means it *did* turn, but slow, check battery voltage under load, check voltage at starter our of the relay, you could have burned the starter up on the run on or the relay.

If it does not turn, again battery check, I would check the new relay, (power out when cranking) and the relay on the starter (again power out when cranking).

 

[cucvmule]

After removing cables when incident happened did you try to connect cables back to see if starter was still engaged? Many things could happen to create problem.

Starter solenoid, steering column starter switch, burnt wires going to starter, at starter, starter out off alignment.

Being truck is new to you, you are relying on what has happened maintenance wise to truck. As you have said you know that it can happen and reacted quickly. Great reaction time and probably saved a lot of heartache by "just knowing".

Now one step at a time, look over the simple things first and then progress to other areas that are definite problem areas. But I think that you already have a good start by looking at batteries then wiring, then components. DH relay wired correctly and did it need it? maybe not.

Although it has not been a lot of trouble in the past funny thing is that I have in the last year have fixed 4 steering column starter relay switches that did the exact same thing. Water, mud, dirt, rocks, sand on your big boots rub on column and are forgot. Removed, electrical cleaner, cycle relay while cleaning and then dielectric grease. And make sure key and plunger assemblies are working without binding.

Simple things that can cause big problems. Good Luck and start looking over and grease is your friend.

 

[ofmyownaccord]

Yes, after the incident first happened and I got the starter to stop, I connected the cables and it started to turn over again. So that makes me think that the starter is still good.

This morning I had about 20 minutes before work so I checked the power at the new DH relay while starting. It had 24.1 coming in but then dropped down to 17.4 as it tried to crank. I saw through the windshield that it did manage to spin the fan briefly. I was alone so I couldn't check the voltage at the starter itself. But the voltage coming off the relay to the starter was 17.4 as well.

So I pulled the batteries and will take them to the parts store to get formally load tested and probably replaced. They have 4/15 stickers on them and have probably sat for most of their life.


Thanks again everyone for the advice.

 

[2deuce]

I would just charge the batteries then try to start the truck. If you take nearly dead batteries to be tested they will fail the test. 12.1 is dead, but it does say you have good cells, by that I mean not a dead one. If you don't have a charger get one and charge them 1 at a time. I know I can't afford to buy new batteries whenever mine get run down. The thing not to do is crank the starter when the batteries are weak, you can easily burn up the starter. So once you notice the starter slowing down as the batteries weaken, stop cranking. If the batteries weaken quickly after a full charge, check them individually, because only one may be bad. You don't have to match your batteries in a CUCV because they are charged by their own alternator.

 

[MarcusOReallyus]

The thing not to do is crank the starter when the batteries are weak, you can easily burn up the starter. .

Yep. And it's not doing the batteries any good, either.

 

[MarcusOReallyus]

12.6 volts

Fully charged automotive batteries should measure at 12.6 volts or above. When the engine is running (running running running), this measurement should be 13.7 to 14.7 volts. If you don't have a multimeter to tell you the voltage of your battery, you can do a test of your electrical system by starting the car and turning on the headlights.

From
https://www.autobatteries.com/en-us/battery-testing-and-maintenance/car-battery-voltage-and-testing

I hope that clears up any confusion.

 

[cucvrus]

Yep. And it's not doing the batteries any good, either.

That same problem is the cause of the starter relay failing and the glow plugs all going bad. Low voltage, High Amperage. I keep batteries fresh and the problems are about extinct. Have a Great Day and I do hope you get that truck started.

 

[2deuce]

As what Cucvrus says low voltage on the battery means your sending high amperage through your system. That is very possibly why the starter relay first went out. High amps burns stuff up. Weak batteries, one or both will do this. It could be your charging system not charging one or both batteries. A 24 volt starter is more susceptible to high amps than a 12 volt starter and a 12volt more so than a 6 volt. So make sure your batteries are good. Which leads to making sure your charging system is functioning correctly. It could be as simple as one of your alternator lights on the dash not working. If you have a CUCV you need to invest in a multimeter and a battery charger. Good luck

 

[2deuce]

One thing I forgot to add on battery voltage is if at full charge you have less than 12.5 volts get a new battery. If you have between 12.5 and 12.6 and it won't take any more charging, your battery will be on it's last legs. A new battery will have about 12.85 off the shelf and sometimes you can get a battery up to near 13 volts on a slow charge which is called a surface charge. You won't get that from the charging system in your vehicle. All these readings are taken with the engine off. In cold weather your battery voltage will be slightly less and I would say that most batteries that are on their last legs in the summer will fail before winter. One last tip for battery long life is don't leave a battery with a low charge, especially in hot weather. Always keep your battery at full charge, which means charging it regularly by using it in the vehicle or charging it with a trickle charger when you don't, because a battery will lose it's charge from sitting.

 

[ofmyownaccord]

Yea, I'm pretty sure it's the batteries at this point. Charged them all day yesterday and still couldn't crank the engine over. Getting two new ones tomorrow. So far, I'm only out the $9 solenoid and two new batteries, which are things I was going to buy anyway. I just thought I'd have more time than 6 days. LOL

Both Gen lights work. Gen 2 would stay on after starting but then turn off after driving away. Looks like I'll probably need to inspect the alternators next. I read that the CUCVelectric mentioned in all the threads is no longer around, where do ya'll get your alt rebuild kits now?

 

[porkysplace]

Yea, I'm pretty sure it's the batteries at this point. Charged them all day yesterday and still couldn't crank the engine over. Getting two new ones tomorrow. So far, I'm only out the $9 solenoid and two new batteries, which are things I was going to buy anyway. I just thought I'd have more time than 6 days. LOL

Both Gen lights work. Gen 2 would stay on after starting but then turn off after driving away. Looks like I'll probably need to inspect the alternators next. I read that the CUCVelectric mentioned in all the threads is no longer around, where do ya'll get your alt rebuild kits now?

CUCVelectric has been gone for years , member Tow4 in florida selling rebuild kits in the SS classifieds.

 

[MarcusOReallyus]

I read that the CUCVelectric mentioned in all the threads is no longer around, where do ya'll get your alt rebuild kits now?

There is a member here that sells the kits. Tow4, I think. I don't know what is wrong with me that I cannot remember who it is. I seem to have a mental block about that, or something. Anyway, check the classifieds. He's there.

Another good source is ASPWholesale.

 

[2deuce]

You may not need the alternator rebuilt if the lights come on when you turn on the key and go off after you rev the engine slightly. Once the light goes out, with the engine running check the voltage at the battery. Should be over 14 volts on each. If the gen 1 or 2 gives you a slight glow then that alt is going out, and if the light comes on bright while driving it is not charging the battery, and needs a rebuild. That is my experience.

 

[Tinstar]

Load test your battery’s before getting new ones.

I had a starter slowly die.
Thought it was battery’s at first. They load tested and charged up fine.
Doghead relay was one of the first things I did to truck.
Alternators were doing their job just fine.

Starting was getting slower each time.
Already had a spare starter on shelf and installed it before issue got worse.
Bingo!
New starter turned engine over better than ever.