Fuel storage and fuel transfer

[glcaines]

I also have other diesel equipment. I have a John Deere 5520 and John Deere 4600 tractors, a deuce, a diesel F250 and a diesel Jetta. I simply pull fuel from those tanks and it is always fresh.

 

[porkysplace]

Anyone have more information on this? I was also thinking about buying a 150 gallon tank and putting it outside.

Here is a link for storage tanks; https://efotg.sc.egov.usda.gov/refe...bove_Ground_Storage_(NO)_(713)_CPS_140129.pdf

https://www.michigan.gov/lara/0,4601,7-154-89334_42271_4115_4237-8866--,00.html

Ironically if you have a trailer mounted genset with the tank plumbed in a 150 gallon tank is no issue .

 

[maniatopoulosg]

Expensive? Have you priced out a 1000gal propane tank to buy vs two 55gal drums? Most all of the propane generators dont sip fuel they guzzle it. Your also still relying on a propane truck to deliver fuel. Diesel you can pump and transfer your self.
NG has its own problems.

Everybody says price per combustible gallon and electricity produced diesel is the winner no matter who you ask


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[maniatopoulosg]

in my area propane is 1.25 gallon and NG is even cheaper. propane stores for longer with less hassle. why use a 1000 gallon tank? in my area a 250 gallon above ground propane tank cost about 250 dollars. what is wrong with having it delivered? NG would be my choice though because you can just hook it to the pipeline. i would make sure the gen was a 1800 rpm model with a 4 pole head.

NG should be your only choice if you have it plumbed to your house. when I was back in New York natural gas is of abundant availability so yes Ng rules when you have and unlimited amounts flowing underground
Here in deep South Florida specifically in some of the newer communities everything is electric or propane we’re not fortunate enough to have it coming to our homes
But I would still put a diesel against gas any day


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[rickf]

And something to think about with diesel fuel storage is that modern diesel fuel does not store anywhere near as long as it used to 20 years ago. Modern diesel is not a whole lot better than gasoline. I have had diesel go bad in a year and not run at all in the MEP and barely run in my tractor. So if you plan on storing it for long periods be sure to stabilize it.

 

[justacitizen]

NG should be your only choice if you have it plumbed to your house. when I was back in New York natural gas is of abundant availability so yes Ng rules when you have and unlimited amounts flowing underground
Here in deep South Florida specifically in some of the newer communities everything is electric or propane we’re not fortunate enough to have it coming to our homes
But I would still put a diesel against gas any day


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just to clarify a bit. my comments were slanted toward the problems with stored fuel when your usage is small not toward what kind of generator is best. i have NG in abundance propane in abundance and diesel fuel in abundance. my generator usage is small and for outages only. if i had to store diesel for the generator only it would be impractical. fortunately that isn't a problem for me but may be for others. if i had to store a large amount of fuel for my generator only and only needed my gen a few hours every couple of years i would definitely consider propane just for the simplicity of storage. the fuel cost under those circumstances would be negligible.

 

[Chainbreaker]

Here is a link I have provided before written by BP Australia. It was written to target bulk Diesel fuel storage but much of it can be applied to small quantity Diesel storage as well:

Edit: Below link is no longer active. Go to post #47 below for a PDF of link content that a SS member thankfully saved.

https://www.bp.com/content/dam/bp-country/en_au/media/fuel-news/long-term-storage-diesel.pdf

 

[ribs1]

Here is a link for storage tanks; https://efotg.sc.egov.usda.gov/refe...bove_Ground_Storage_(NO)_(713)_CPS_140129.pdf

https://www.michigan.gov/lara/0,4601,7-154-89334_42271_4115_4237-8866--,00.html

Ironically if you have a trailer mounted genset with the tank plumbed in a 150 gallon tank is no issue .

Thanks for that info. Sounds like staying small is better.
Maybe a couple 30 gallon drums or something.

 

[Bmxenbrett]

just to clarify a bit. my comments were slanted toward the problems with stored fuel when your usage is small not toward what kind of generator is best. i have NG in abundance propane in abundance and diesel fuel in abundance. my generator usage is small and for outages only. if i had to store diesel for the generator only it would be impractical. fortunately that isn't a problem for me but may be for others. if i had to store a large amount of fuel for my generator only and only needed my gen a few hours every couple of years i would definitely consider propane just for the simplicity of storage. the fuel cost under those circumstances would be negligible.

Storing any fuel for a single use that may only happen once in a blue moon wouldnt be wise, Propane included. Not to mention most of those propane generators drink it like its free.

I had a look around at my property and decided on diesel due to my secondary home heat is heating oil. So i alreaty store the fuel, that would be only emergency use if i couldnt get diesel at the pump.

I cant store NG onsite so that wasnt an option to me.

 

[frank8003]

Gee, do I really wanna make a comment or not about the propane, and piping, and regulators and being ready in the hurricane zone. Maybe tomorrow.

 

[porkysplace]

in my area propane is 1.25 gallon and NG is even cheaper. propane stores for longer with less hassle. why use a 1000 gallon tank? in my area a 250 gallon above ground propane tank cost about 250 dollars. what is wrong with having it delivered? NG would be my choice though because you can just hook it to the pipeline. i would make sure the gen was a 1800 rpm model with a 4 pole head.

I can tell you first hand propane is my last choice for fuel in a generator . I have a 5000w Kawasaki that runs on gasoline or propane and at full load I get about 13 hours on gasoline , the one time I hooked it to propane it sucked a 70 pound tank dry in less than 4 hours. it don't take a math major to figure out thats a 20 pound tank of propane to a 3/4 of a gallon of gasoline.

 

[justacitizen]

somehow this has become a propane vs diesel thread. the original was more about storage not what was the best fuel.

 

[porkysplace]

somehow this has become a propane vs diesel thread. the original was more about storage not what was the best fuel.

The storage idea was pretty much covered for the OP in the 2 links I provided (post #22 )on storage in michigan ( we are both from michigan ).
It turned to a propane NG debate in post #10.
It requires a permit to install and either a approved double walled tank or containment area and a annual permit to keep it.

 

[rickf]

And as far as storage, long term storage of propane can cause headaches also since it is also a petroleum product. Propane degrades into a gooey mess in the lines and regulators after a couple years and that all has to be cleaned out and regulators replaced.

 

[naehring2000]

OP, if your handy you could do a 275 gallon oil tank with a homemade fuel polishing setup. I procured a 275 gallon tank for my ultimate fully automatic MEP 803-A build I will be posting about come summer when I have everything completed. Granted I have a few pieces of small diesel powered equipment and a diesel daily driver but I don't think I would've done different if I didn't have those. Oil tanks are cheap, even new ones (which is what I opted for) and if your handy building a containment area is easy too.
I have a fuel dispensing pump for my equipment and a small pump hooked in a loop with a fuel water separator and fuel filter I can turn on to polish my fuel as needed. My tank breather also passes through a desiccant.
My circumstances aren't the same as most though, when my power is out I am all but guaranteed to not be home and potentially not home for days so I needed something that could do everything unassisted and run for a long time. I average .42 GPH and on a full tank I would get roughly 22 days of run time.

 

[frank8003]

see post #30
I the guy that wanted to attach the Deuce to a generator as I get fuel for free. (PTO) So many big bucks that would be, I just couldn't see. Somebody invent me one.

For Wilma We had no power for 21 days and no water for three daze.
I was forced onto 7 -12's with overtime, no daze off and four people to feed. Be frugal.

Here, ......... We just have to be prepared. After 10 to 21 daze we WILL abandon this homestead and fight it some other place. The water and fuel and food will be gone.
I just finished the propane takeoff for my 8000 continuous generator and have two other fuel inputs to the system as well. Also have another 300 lbs propane stowed properly.

The propane keeps well, use it in gas grill and many appliances all year.
I can no longer deal with gasoline or diesel generators and the underground NG supply is 225 yards away, no can get that, $$$$$$$$$$.

The plan is when all else fails We sleep in the Volt. Can run some lights, the reefer and quite a few other things with the inverter Volt powered. Can drive up to 200 miles to get gasoline if needed and charge the Volt with the propane generator.

 

[Bmxenbrett]

You guys are forgetting that he may not want 100s of gallons of diesel nor may he beable to use it in a timely manor. 20days with out power is not normal any where in this country so having 250gal of diesel sitting around may be more of a liability than a benifit.

If you can get diesel in an outage why not have the storage capacity clean/ready. Many places now have backup generators for fuel pumps. Many people dont need diesel like gas in an outage.

Fuel storage is a choice you need to make for your self in your personal situation. None of us can make that decision for you or tell you what you need.

 

[Chainbreaker]

You guys are forgetting that he may not want 100s of gallons of diesel nor may he beable to use it in a timely manor. 20days with out power is not normal any where in this country so having 250gal of diesel sitting around may be more of a liability than a benifit.

If you can get diesel in an outage why not have the storage capacity clean/ready.

Well...since our local power outage that began on Feb 25, 2019 there are still thousands without power here in Oregon. They are now on day 10+ without power due to a record breaking winter snow storm that has left some of the more remote roads still impassible due to downed trees and snow drifts so they can't even get out to get fuel.

https://www.opb.org/news/article/oregon-douglas-county-snowstorm-power-outage/

Local news reports that there were approximately 2,000 trees downed in this storm across just one road, Hwy 58, that cutoff all access in/out in Oakridge, OR for several days and the few gas stations were running low on fuel. So you can't always count on the option to drive out and obtain fuel during an extended power outage event.

https://www.opb.org/radio/programs/...regon-oakridge-residents-snow-winter-weather/

So the lesson many learned is to be better prepared for the unexpected (Generator + adequate fuel).

Since the OP lives in Michigan, obviously severe winter storms are not out of the question plus anything else that might cause a widespread pwr outage. Since he has a MEP-802 he should be prepared to run it for several days. With a burn rate of ~.5+ GPH, if he were wanting to run it 12 hrs per day during an outage and wants to be able to run for a week without going out to get fuel, one would be wise to store approx. 50+ gallons in addition to a full genset day tank. If its necessary to run 24/7 then double those numbers.

When diesel is stored properly and treated I have had diesel keep for 4 yrs before using and it still performed very well. If a genset is run for test PM runs for an hour a month, some of that fuel will get burned and replenished. If his fuel reserve were stored in Jerry cans its easier on a month-to-month basis to use a Jerry can to top up and then fill that can with fresh diesel and tag it with a date code so only oldest fuel gets burned first. Its also easier to keep individual Jerry cans full and air tight vs vented bulk storage. However, bulk fuel storage is much easier to manage overall ESPECIALLY during an extended outage. So there are trade-offs involved.

With those caveats, you're right about it coming down to a personal choice of how one wants to manage reserve fuel storage.

If he has any neighbors with diesel vehicles or equipment he might be able to work a fuel rotation deal of sorts if he should desire to turn his fuel reserve over more frequently.

 

[glcaines]

The longest I have been without EMC power is 12 days. My MEP003A ran virtually continuously during that time. I only stopped the generator occasionally to check the oil. Ran perfectly. I mostly pulled fuel from my M35A2 and M35A3 deuces. Drove the trucks to town and topped off. I would advise anyone that experiences long outages to own a diesel-powered truck or car they can pull fuel from. There is no substitute for rotating fuel better than pulling fuel from a regularly used vehicle. I never let my vehicle fuel tanks to get less than 1/2 full. I also test run my genset once per month on a regular basis.

 

[CMPPhil]

Will heating oil work OK in military generator?

Hi

First don't want to high jack this thread if this belongs as a separate thread or has already been answered, please say so.

Somebody mentioned home heating oil as a possible fuel for military generator, if this can be done without major effort, then I'll replace my gas generators with diesel. As my keeping fresh fuel on hand would be over. Already heat with home heating oil burn 600-700 gallons a year and have a 1000 gallon tank that lives in garage two bays over from generator. So with no effort we would be getting fresh fuel every year.

Before someone asks the garage is 50 feet from the house, no noise no fumes, no carbon monoxide in the house.

Even keeping fresh gas for the generators is a pain, if stored for more than 3 months the generators start loosing power and efficiency.

Now, this all sounds to simple, what's wrong with it?

Cheers Phil

PS longest we have been with power was two weeks. That was a lot of 5 gallon cans to be hauled and transfered.