MEP002A no start

[Rosemary Ranch]

Although Renuing's starting issue has probably been resolved - I had similar starting issues which turned out to be a small plastic part on the end of the Governor Control Arm. The part is called a Injection Pump Ball Joint and can be found on Amazon or Green Mountain Generators.
They are inexpensive, so I got a couple for backup.

 

[renuing]

Rosemary Ranch,

Thanks for the response and sharing your experience. I am still building the shop that the generator will power so I haven't been able to turn my attention back to getting the generator running yet. I'm close to finishing the shop though so I plan to dig into it again soon. Ray70 rebuilt my injectors and I have them ready to install and see what happens. I'll check the ball joint now as well. What problem was it causing exactly? Thanks again!

 

[Rosemary Ranch]

I start and run the genset about once a week. It had been running great the week prior, but failed to start on subsequent attempts. Every now and then I'd get a small puff of white smoke, but certainly not starting. Checked and emptied the fuel/water canister, ran the glow plugs for a full minute and tried again.. Same results. Hmmm, fuel, fire and compression.. Used a small shot of starting fluid, since it was the first real cool day I've attempted a start on the unit.

Well now, that was different. Motor fired with more white smoke than before - but a long way from starting. Okay, leaning towards fuel, but still could be a ton of other stuff; oil sensor, injectors, glow plugs, operator error etc. Took a couple deep breaths and started to think of any diesel mechs I might know while checking my savings account online. Ugh..

Thinking.. Maybe I should look the motor over for the obvious. Bingo! What's this thing hanging down, and what does it connect to? Hmmm, broken plastic part looks like it should connect to the thingmagiggy . Let's open the tech manual (also known as the big white sleeping pill), and see. Zzzzzz...

Stretching 8-hours later with a yawn, while waking up from my Tec Man coma - it's a Injection Pump Ball Joint that connects to the Governor Control Arm. Okay, now living the dream! That certainly has something to do with fuel. Where can a former Sailor go to find such a part? A trip back to the Philippines? Nah, no such luck.. But hey, Amazon has everything - right?

Well lookie there - Amazon does have the dang thing! Giddy up!

Amazon.com

All kidding aside - I hope you get yours running soon!

Keep us posted.

Kevin

 

[renuing]

Kevin,

Thanks for the entertaining story and explanation! I'm glad you were able to get it back up and running easily. I think there's a zip tie on that part on my generator from the previous owner. I think it still activates the governor arm but I'll have to remember to check and make sure.

 

[Triple Jim]

Renuing, even though you live in Hawaii the glow plugs are needed, since it's a prechamber type deisel. The control system is wired to run them while the starter is cranking the engine, so it can seem like they're not needed, but if you run them 20 or 30 seconds before cranking you'll find it starts very quickly, provided everything else is working right.

 

[renuing]

Thanks! This is my first genset so I appreciate the tips. When I was trying to start it back in the Spring I did try using the glow plugs but not every time. When I give it another go I'll make sure to run em 20-30 seconds.

 

[Chainbreaker]

...Used a small shot of starting fluid, since it was the first real cool day I've attempted a start on the unit.

Tip: You really shouldn't use starting fluid (ether) on a diesel with intake heaters and glow plugs. One runs the risk of damaging the engine by explosive detonation in the intake manifold or breaking piston rings or damaging the piston itself due to using starting fluid in a "compression ignition" engine. Being a diesel engine the compression ratio is MUCH greater than a gasoline "spark ignition" engine. You may have gotten by with it using a "small shot" but you might not be so lucky next time.

 

[Rosemary Ranch]

All true, sir! All true..

In my defense, I thought I was going to go up in the fireball years ago, so I have no real plan for this point forward..

Thanks for keeping me squared away!

 

[renuing]

I was finally able to get back to the generator and installed the rebuilt injectors from @Ray70. When Ray got the injectors he said that "Neither of them were stuck closed, but both have problems. Both were opening at around 1000 -1200 PSI instead of the required 1950 psi. Also, one of them is hanging open occasionally and not closing or "Popping" correctly as they say."

So I installed the rebuilt injectors, bled the lines and when I tried to start it (using the glow plugs this time) it just cranked and cranked still with no white smoke. Fuel is definitely getting to the injectors but it seems that there isn't enough pressure to make them function. Before installing the injectors I dripped 5 drops of fuel in to lubricate so for the first few seconds of cranking there was white smoke but then nothing. That is the first smoke I've seen from the machine.

I'm back to thinking it's in the injector pump (although I'm really glad I got the injectors rebuilt because they obviously needed it). As I've been pouring over the tech manuals and Ambac M50 rebuild instructions again I've got a very sickening feeling. Last year when I started digging into this problem I remember pulling the spring and delivery valve assembly out to check for a stuck plunger but when I looked in there yesterday I only saw the spring and delivery valve sleeve but no delivery valve!! What in the world would I have done with it!?! I can't for the life of me remember and don't know why I wouldn't have put it right back in with everything else. I'm almost positive I remember seeing it. I've worked on a lot of motorcycle carbs so am very familiar with that part.

Anyway, any suggestions on what to try before pulling the IP or why I might not be getting enough pressure or how to check that? Also, anyone know where I can get a delivery valve? I'm going call Ambac on Monday with major crossed fingers.

Thanks again everyone!
Jonathan

 

[Ray70]

Hi Jonathan, the 2 most common issues with the IP are stuck plungers and broken plunger guides ( Dog bone )
If your plunger is sticking or isn't traveling its full length you won't enough fuel flow and if the plunger guide broke or skipped 90 degrees your timing will be way off. You also won't get anything without the delivery valve in place.
My suggestion would be to carefully make sure ( which you already worked on ) the plunger is moving freely. also try to make sure that it is spinning as you turn the motor over. You can also try performing the static pump timing test. If you find the timing is way off this would indicate that the plunger guide is either broken or it has skipped.
Ambac will have the delivery valve, but incase you need any other parts it is best to place 1 order to save on shipping.
If for some reason you can't get a delivery valve, send me a PM and I will try to dig one up from a parts machine.

If you end up needing to remove and rebuild the pump, the process is very easy and the pump repair manual gives step by step instruction and everything is available from Ambac.

Follow the instructions and be 100% sure you are on the compression stroke of the cyl. closest to the fan and on the PC mark in the timing pointer hole of the bell housing. Check that a 1/8" drill bit fits into the alignment notch in the IP drive gear, then pull the pump off.

 

[renuing]

Ray,

Thanks for the info. I'm learning a bit more each step of the way. I will get a hold of Ambac about the delivery valve. I'm not positive that I have confirmed the plunger is moving freely. I thought I did previously but I'm not 100% sure. I've taken the spring out and delivery valve assembly and then see what looks like a conical shaped metal part with a small (maybe 1/16") hole. The metal part doesn't seem to move and I haven't been able to get anything long enough to fit in the small hole. How exactly do I confirm movement and spinning of the plunger? Will it spin when manually turning over the motor? Do I need to hold the throttle linkage up up at the same time?

I performed the flow test that @jamawieb suggested and my timing was just one tick off PC. I could redo that test just to make sure. I'd like to confirm plunger movement and have the delivery valve in place to test again before pulling the pump off to rebuild. It seems pretty straightforward with some great resources here with pictures but if it doesn't need it, it might be best to leave alone.

Thanks again, I feel confident I will get this going.

Jonathan

 

[jamawieb]

Ray,

Thanks for the info. I'm learning a bit more each step of the way. I will get a hold of Ambac about the delivery valve. I'm not positive that I have confirmed the plunger is moving freely. I thought I did previously but I'm not 100% sure. I've taken the spring out and delivery valve assembly and then see what looks like a conical shaped metal part with a small (maybe 1/16") hole. The metal part doesn't seem to move and I haven't been able to get anything long enough to fit in the small hole. How exactly do I confirm movement and spinning of the plunger? Will it spin when manually turning over the motor? Do I need to hold the throttle linkage up up at the same time?

I performed the flow test that @jamawieb suggested and my timing was just one tick off PC. I could redo that test just to make sure. I'd like to confirm plunger movement and have the delivery valve in place to test again before pulling the pump off to rebuild. It seems pretty straightforward with some great resources here with pictures but if it doesn't need it, it might be best to leave alone.

Thanks again, I feel confident I will get this going.

Jonathan

Ray,
What you described as the conical shaped metal part with a small hole, is the top of the plunger. You do not need to hold the throttle up to see it rotate and move. You should see that turning and going in/out as you rotate the motor by hand. If its stuck us a punch and lightly tap with a hammer, then rotate the motor some more and repeat (also spray with it with carb cleaner). When performing the flow test, if the flowed slowed as you got closer to PC, then it has to be rotating. Just make sure your not basing your timing off the non-compression stroke (180 degrees off). If its 180 degrees off you will have flow to the injectors but its sending it at the wrong time.

 

[renuing]

@jamawieb thanks for clarifying that! Makes a lot of sense now. I will definitely check the plunger and do the flow test this weekend while waiting for a new delivery valve assembly.

Jonathan

 

[Ray70]

Hi Jamaweib , Renuing.... I think there's a little confusion up above. Renuing, do you have the parts schematic for the pump? Under the big cap is the smaller cap that is a 5/8" 12 point nut. This is what is referred to as the delivery valve holder, #32 in diagram. Under that is #33 which is the 3/16" diameter spring, then #34 is 2 pieces, the outer shell is about 1/2" in diameter and is probably stuck in place by the paper thin plastic seal, #35 in the diagram. In the center of the delivery valve assembly is the actual valve which has a 1/16" hole in the center. If you remove just the center piece with the hole it will look like a carburator float needle, pointed on the inner end. Is that what you are missing? Use a pair of needle nose pliers and pull out the 1/2" diameter piece that the "Needle" or delivery valve is in. Now the 1/4" diameter recessed shaft you now see is the plunger. As you rotate the motor by hand the 1/4" plunger should be turning and moving in and out about 1/8" to 3/16". If it is not moving in and out the plunger is sticking. If it is not rotating your plunger guide ( dog bone ) #26 in the diagram is broken. To check for the plunger movement just put something into the 1/4" center hole and hold pressure inward. As you turn the motor over you should feel it push out, then move back in. You will need to turn the motor a couple revolutions to correctly confirm movement.
If the plunger is not moving, spray carburator cleaner in there and let sit, then try tapping lightly in on the plunger with a brass punch. If it feels solid, turn the motor 90 degrees and try again, incase the cam lobe was pressing on the pump.
If it seems to be moving freely, try to verify it is also spinning. This is very difficult because you need to look at the shiny end of the plunger and see if it is spinning. Try using a bright flashlight and also try using a fine permanent marker to put a line on the plunger to help see if it is turning.
If you don't have the pump schematic I can send it to you tomorrow ( home with sick kids today and all my info is on my work computer ) or I think it is listed here in the Technical manual section.
Confirm all this and we will go from there.

 

[renuing]

Ray,

Thank you again for the detailed reply. I do have the parts diagram and followed along with what you described. The delivery valve "needle" that sits inside #34 is what I am missing. I'm pretty sure I am missing the plastic spacer (#35) as well but that might be stuck in there still when I pull #34 out with needle nose pliers. I'm not sure the spacer was ever there but I'm pretty confident the delivery valve "needle" was I misplaced it

I have pulled both pieces of #34 out and what I see behind looks like a conical shaped object with a tiny hole in the center. I haven't looked to see if it moves or rotates while turning the engine. That is what I plan to do Saturday. I will update as soon as I confirm plunger function and proper flow test.

In the meantime I talked to Ambac and they stopped selling the delivery valves in 2017 so I will send you a PM to see if you might have one floating around.

Jonathan

 

[Ray70]

I'm still a bit confused when you say tiny hole in it. The conical shape you describe should be the end of the plunger, it's slightly rounded and about the diameter of a pencil, but there is no hole in it. Unless it's just a speck of something on it? You should be seeing just the recessed end of the plunger.
See my PM about delivery valve etc.
Thanks
Ray.

 

[renuing]

Ray, this is a little perplexing, the little hole I'm describing is definitely a hole because I was able to stick a small piece of metal into it and it's about 1/16" in diameter. It also is definitely behind the delivery valve holder but that could have just been me putting it back together incorrectly all those months ago. The hole almost seems like what the tip of the delivery valve "needle" would seat into. I'm not sure how to move it without damaging it though. Maybe I can try to get some pictures this weekend, it's a pretty tight and dark area though so not sure how they will come out. Thanks for the PM.

Jonathan

 

[Ray70]

Ah, now I see what is happening. You removed the center needle from the "2 Piece" delivery valve assembly.
The conical seat and 1/16" hole you are seeing is in fact where the needle seats. You still need to remove the outer piece of the delivery valve ( which may be stuck in place by the plastic delivery valve holder ) You will see a raised ring about 5/16" diameter around the hole where you removed the needle. grip that ring with needle nose and pull out the 1/2" diameter center piece which is the rest of the delivery valve. Maybe you will get lucky and the very thin plastic delivery valve spacer will still be in-tact. If it is deteriorated, make sure that is included in the rebuild kit, otherwise Ambac gets like $25 for that tiny sliver of plastic!

 

[renuing]

Ray,

The clouds are starting to part I think you are right on, no parts diagram ever shows the delivery valve as a 2-piece part. I borrowed some pictures from this thread of an IP rebuild and put some descriptions of what I see on them...

https://www.steelsoldiers.com/threads/ambac-m-50-rebuild-w-pics-mep-003a.183913/




I don't know if that orange part (which I assume is the thin plastic piece you are talking about) is always orange since I don't remember seeing anything orange but I will look closer next time. The eye-opener to me is where I highlighted red and wrote "Unknown" I think that is the second part you are talking about that is still in there. When I remove the delivery valve the hole looks similar size on both ends, in this picture one side is decidedly smaller.

Another thing that has me curious is I wonder if that conical shape with 1/16" hole is actually the needle valve that I think I'm missing and I just reinserted the parts backwards somehow since it looks just like what I see. That is probably not possible but curious nonetheless.

Anyway, I won't be able to tell anything until I get back to the generator but hopefully this thread with help people in the future as well so thought I would include the pictures for completeness.

Jonathan

 

[Ray70]

Humm... Well lets start with the orange ring. That is the thin plastic delivery valve spacer. It will no longer be orange in your machine, but probably more of a brown color, or possible deteriorated and stuck to the metal housing inside. The item you have listed as unknown with the Red square in your picture is the outer part of the 2 piece delivery valve, which I was thinking was still in your machine. The "Orange" spacer goes on the inboard end of this piece and seals it to the body of the pump housing.
The other part you have listed with the blue rectangle as "Missing Part" is the center needle of the 2 piece delivery valve. This goes into the outer piece with the pointy end inward and the spring pushes it inward.
In your description it's starting to sound like maybe the delivery valve is all there and maybe you threw it back together with the center needle in backwards, and maybe you never removed the outer 1/2 or the orange spacer??
Take a good look this weekend and try to get a picture and we'll see exactly what parts you need.