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Trailer mounted temp ground?

dav5

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G744

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I had several mil-issue 5 ft rods that were copper-coated steel, with a 2" bronze auger bit brazed to the business end.

The top had a bronze bar handle to 'screw' it into the earth. A wingnut was included to hook the chunk of 1-ought welder cable to.

Sure beat driving rods with a sledge. I may still have one somewhere.

ps...Wingnuts are also how Superman flies.

D
 

Coug

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I'm a bit late to this party.
I've been one of those people bit by a trailer mounted gen out in the field. Not bad enough for injury, but enough that I insisted the medics check me out.



So for the RVs not being grounded, part of it has to do with the load being contained within the same unit, which minimizes it. Then a lot of them don't have the 120/240 circuits tied to chassis ground. All the wiring starts and ends at the generator, so the chassis isn't energized unless someone screwed up during construction/repair.
That and there is a lot more plastic in modern RVs than there used to be, so the grab handles are likely insulated from the chassis anyway.
I can't say that I have ever been shocked by an RV generator while working on them.


When driving a ground rod with a sledgehammer it's supposed to have a striker cap on it. A steel bolt threaded into one of the couplers at the top of the section you are driving. If not for those there is no way you'd get 3 sections screwed together and driven into the ground. Unfortunately the amount of training we received on how to set up and operate generators in the army was pretty much nonexistent, so we had a lot of damaged ground rods.
 

HORNETD

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Pretty simple rule is always drive a ground and test it's continuity before making power. Yeah, I know. It can be a pain in the anatomy to drive a ground and test it, but dying is even less fun...

Here is a two page OSHA piece on grounding. It talks about frame ground and the need.
Here are the requirements for trailer mounted generators taken directly from the US National Electric Code (NEC).

"Vehicle-Mounted Generators. The frame of a vehicle shall not be required to be connected to a grounding electrode as defined in 250.52 for a system supplied by a generator located on this vehicle under the following conditions:

(1) The frame of the generator is bonded to the vehicle frame, and

(2) The generator supplies only equipment located on the vehicle or cord-and-plug connected equipment through receptacles mounted on the vehicle, or both equipment located on the vehicle and cord-and-plug-connected equipment through receptacles mounted on the vehicle or on the generator, and

(3) The normally non–current-carrying metal parts of equipment and the equipment grounding conductor terminals of the receptacles are connected to the generator frame.
 

HORNETD

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Let me rephrase guys, I plan on grounding it no problem. I'm looking for a way to efficiently and quickly ground and remove ground rod when I'm done there for the weekend. Or is sledge my best option to drive In. Removal?
If you are going to ground you may want to use a Surface Wire Grounding System. This is the way the military now grounds vehicles and dismounted vehicle transported shelters. The Surface Wire Grounding Kit comes in a bag a little larger than the ones used as mechanic tool bags. Testing done at the Aberdeen Proving Ground showed that the kit is more effective than the 9 foot long sectional driven rods previously used.

Surface Wire Grounding System.jpg
The engineering hammer's 1 foot long handle will give you an idea of the size of the kit and it's carrying bag.
 

HORNETD

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Is the generator mounted on a trailer on rubber tires? That's my main question cause there would be no difference between a generator running on a parked bus vs a trailer mounted generator because if there was any hint of that scenario being code every union electrician i handed my tails to would have put a rod in the ground and that never happened in 30 yrs and them guy don't let you get away with nothing lol
This is not intended as a contradiction but only as a point of information. Tires are not insulators! The embedded steel belts and the additives used to stabilize and drastically slow the vulcanizing of the rubber; in those tires that have natural rubber as an ingredient; assure that all tires are conductive. That is not to say they are a good conductor but they will pass some electric current.
 

chucky

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This is not intended as a contradiction but only as a point of information. Tires are not insulators! The embedded steel belts and the additives used to stabilize and drastically slow the vulcanizing of the rubber; in those tires that have natural rubber as an ingredient; assure that all tires are conductive. That is not to say they are a good conductor but they will pass some electric current.
We had gotten down to wonder why a motorhome can have a generator running and you walk up and grab anything metal on that camper and not get shocked but on same generators on trailers the guys on here said they had to groundrod them to keep from getting shocked and i was interested what was the difference in the 2 of them being on tires with differnt reactions
 

chucky

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If you are going to ground you may want to use a Surface Wire Grounding System. This is the way the military now grounds vehicles and dismounted vehicle transported shelters. The Surface Wire Grounding Kit comes in a bag a little larger than the ones used as mechanic tool bags. Testing done at the Aberdeen Proving Ground showed that the kit is more effective than the 9 foot long sectional driven rods previously used.

View attachment 849723
The engineering hammer's 1 foot long handle will give you an idea of the size of the kit and it's carrying bag.
What are the spikes and cable made of ?
 

319

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I have a few of the NOS ground rod slide hammers in stock, Please PM me if interested.
I do not have ground rods available.
 

HORNETD

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No. Simply no. If you do not ground the trailer, you become the ground when you walk over to do something to it. I know people who have not just gone to the hospital for getting shocked by a trailer mounted gen set, but have had to be medically retired due to the damage the shock caused their body. The Army kills at least 2 people a yer, due to no ground/improper grounding of trailer mounted gen sets.
The issue of Touch Potential cannot be resolved by Grounding a Generator. That can only be done by installing an equipotential plane under and around the Generator or the vehicle on which it is mounted and bonded to. That is not a practical thing to do in mobile applications. It is only done in Electrical utility sub stations and in animal barn floors and entry/exit pathways to prevent the loss of livestock to step potential shock or electrocution.

Again I refer to the applicable language of the US National Electric Code.

"Electrical System Grounding. Electrical systems that are grounded shall be connected to earth in a manner that will limit the voltage imposed by lightning, line surges, or unintentional contact with higher-voltage lines and that will stabilize the voltage to earth during normal operation."

Notice that there is no mention of the prevention of electric shock or electrocution in that language. That is because connecting a conductive surface to earth is insufficient to lower the touch potential from a fault between that surface and an energized conductor to prevent injury. Their are 2 common misconceptions being stated here. Electrical current does not flow only on "the path of least resistance!" It flows on all the available pathways in direct proportion to their resistance. Understand that the path of least resistance may only be a single ohm different than the next most conductive pathway available. The current will divide into all of the conductive pathways present. That is one of the reasons that the NEC forbids the use of the earth as an Equipment Grounding Conductor (EGC).

" One or more grounding electrodes shall be permitted to be connected to the equipment grounding conductors specified in 250.118 and shall not be required to comply with the electrode bonding requirements of 250.50 or 250.53(C) or the resistance requirements of 250.53(A)(2) Exception, but the earth shall not be used as an effective ground-fault current path as specified in 250.4(A)(5) and 250.4(B)(4)."

This prohibition is meant to prevent exactly what some are arguing for in this thread. Depending on a connection to earth to clear a fault between a normally energized part of the generator and a non current carrying part simply doesn't work. Since the current flowing to ground is usually not enough to cause the Over Current Protective Device (OCPD) to open; which pending repair is the only way to clear or eliminate the fault; there will often be more than enough voltage between the fault and Ground to cause the 30 milliamperes that will kill a human being to flow. Grounding alone does not work. That is because of the second misconception being expressed as gospel here. Electrical current is not returning to earth. [See the purpose of Grounding above.] It is returning to it's source. In the use we are talking about here that source is the windings of the generator. A ground connection is a very unreliable way to do that. For it to function in that roll there would have to be a Grounding Electrode at the location of the fault and at the source and the sum of the impedance to earth would have to be less than 8 Ohms to permit more than the fifteen ampere trip point of the lowest rated OCPD to flow. An extremely good low impedance ground connection, such as the ones installed at remote communications equipment shelters and computer data server centers, is one with a impedance to ground of 10 Ohms or less. If the sum of the resistance at the fault point and the source of supply is over 8 ohms the 16 to 20 amperes needed to cause the OCPD to trip open and clear the fault WILL NOT FLOW! A single driven rod will never have that low an impedance unless it is thrown into salt water or driven into salt water saturated marsh or beach sand.

I know what I'm saying from personal experience. In addition to having worked in the electrical craft for my bread work I served as a volunteer firefighter for 45 years. At one point during the salvage and overhaul part of a suppression effort I was bringing a preconnected flood light to the work area. The shell of the flood light was made of Aluminum to reduce it's weight when handling it. The Apparatus Engineer; read equipment operator / driver; of the Lighting Unit was feeding the cord to me as I carried the flood light toward that site. I suddenly experienced a painful shock that caused all the muscles in my hand and arm to contract violently. Fortunately that caused my grip on the non conductive phenolic plastic (Bakelite) handle to tighten which removed my hand from contact with the metal shell of the flood light. This was at the end of operations on a 4th alarm fire. Everyone's protective clothing was soaked with water to the point that the clothing was somewhat conductive for short distances, such as through my glove to my hand. Now what caused me to get a shock from a vehicle mounted generator? There has to be a complete pathway from the source of the current through a load and back to the source for current to flow. That lighting unit had been obtained as surplus equipment from the Office of Civil Defense. All of the cords provided with it and fitted to it's multiple cord reels were 2 wire. One energized, or hot, conductor and one Grounded Current Carrying Conductor, which we all call a neutral even when it's not. There was no equipment grounding conductor in the cords. Because the cords were not fitted with cord grips
Cord_Grip.jpg
my puling on the cord by the flanged inlet plug mounted in the flood light caused a fault to the aluminum shell of the flood light. Where then was the other side of the circuit? Since it has only been realized over the last several decades that grounding does not provide safety for touch potential injury the instructions on the surplus lighting unit included extending a reel mounted GEC to a grounding electrode. Since this was a fire department vehicle the obvious grounding electrode was the underground metal water piping that supplied the fire hydrants. The large alligator clamp on the end of what was made to be the static bonding line of fuel truck was clipped to the bolted flange at the base of the hydrant barrel which is bolted to the flange at the end of the hydrant riser. Perhaps lucky for me no one ever stops to remove the paint from the hydrant contact surface nor to twist the alligator clamp back and forth until it scrapes through the paint. That said the paint used is at least slightly conductive. The shock pathway was through the energized conductor of the cord, to the aluminum shell of the flood light, through my badly contaminated and water soaked protective clothing, into the earth, through the 24 inch water mains, through the grounding cable of the lighting unit, and back to the source in the windings of the generator. A highly contributing factor in the length of the shock was that the breaker which was the OCPD of the cord reel I was using did not open because although plenty of current was flowing to hurt like hell come to breakfast not enough current was flowing to open the OCPD.
 
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HORNETD

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Is that as good a conductor for ground as copper ?
No it is not as good a ground as if that assembly had been made with tinned copper wire and copper plated stakes. But neither of those would have stood up to field service. Both the copper cladding and the tinning on the wire would have been damaged during each installation.

That said it is a better ground than the previously issued, 9 foot long, sectional ground rod. The work done at the Aberdeen Proving Ground clearly shows its superiority as a Grounding Electrode Array and as a system to be used by mobile units that have to set up operations and then relocate very quickly. The increased speed of both installation and recovery is what they were looking for and they achieved it with no loss of effectiveness.
 

Mullaney

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No it is not as good a ground as if that assembly had been made with tinned copper wire and copper plated stakes. But neither of those would have stood up to field service. Both the copper cladding and the tinning on the wire would have been damaged during each installation.

That said it is a better ground than the previously issued, 9 foot long, sectional ground rod. The work done at the Aberdeen Proving Ground clearly shows its superiority as a Grounding Electrode Array and as a system to be used by mobile units that have to set up operations and then relocate very quickly. The increased speed of both installation and recovery is what they were looking for and they achieved it with no loss of effectiveness.
.
Really nice writeup about grounding!
Thanks for the information...
 

HORNETD

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We had gotten down to wonder why a motor home can have a generator running and you walk up and grab anything metal on that camper and not get shocked but on same generators on trailers the guys on here said they had to ground rod them to keep from getting shocked and i was interested what was the difference in the 2 of them being on tires with different reactions
The difference is that the trailer is not bonded to anything else except the conductive exteriors of portable tools and equipment, except those that are double insulated, that have an Equipment Grounding Conductor (EGC) in the flexible cord which brings the power to each of them.

There is a common misconception that metal framed vehicles and mobile equipment which generate or use electrical power must be grounded. Unlike some I cannot quote you chapter and verse from a military manual on how the Armed Forces would use a mobile generator. But having worked 45 years in the electrical craft I can tell you that we who are no longer in the military must comply with the US National Electric Code in our use of formerly military equipment. Thing is that the US NEC neither forbids nor requires portable nor mobile generators to be grounded unless they are powering a permanent structure. That means that you may ground either portable or mobile generators if you choose to but the NEC does not require you to do so.

Modern Bonding and Grounding practice prevent grounding the frame and neutral point of a generator from creating a hazard as long as all of the cords used have an EGC with the other conductors. If a fault occurs which energizes the non current carrying conductive parts of anything powered by such a generator the very low impedance of the EGC allows all of the current available at the fault point to flow back to it's source in the windings of the generator. That will be much more current than the Over Current Protective Device (OCPD) is selected to carry so the OCPD will open the energized conductor at it's source in less than a second. Removing the voltage from the circuit causes the current flow to cease thus preventing any further injury or damage.
 

Mullaney

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The difference is that the trailer is not bonded to anything else except the conductive exteriors of portable tools and equipment, except those that are double insulated, that have an Equipment Grounding Conductor (EGC) in the flexible cord which brings the power to each of them.

There is a common misconception that metal framed vehicles and mobile equipment which generate or use electrical power must be grounded. Unlike some I cannot quote you chapter and verse from a military manual on how the Armed Forces would use a mobile generator. But having worked 45 years in the electrical craft I can tell you that we who are no longer in the military must comply with the US National Electric Code in our use of formerly military equipment. Thing is that the US NEC neither forbids nor requires portable nor mobile generators to be grounded unless they are powering a permanent structure. That means that you may ground either portable or mobile generators if you choose to but the NEC does not require you to do so.

Modern Bonding and Grounding practice prevent grounding the frame and neutral point of a generator from creating a hazard as long as all of the cords used have an EGC with the other conductors. If a fault occurs which energizes the non current carrying conductive parts of anything powered by such a generator the very low impedance of the EGC allows all of the current available at the fault point to flow back to it's source in the windings of the generator. That will be much more current than the Over Current Protective Device (OCPD) is selected to carry so the OCPD will open the energized conductor at it's source in less than a second. Removing the voltage from the circuit causes the current flow to cease thus preventing any further injury or damage.
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I guess it is an "old man-ism" that says to drive a ground rod. On the other hand, that Grounding Electrode Array is pretty nice. And if you ever have to beat feet, it might be possible to yank that out of the dirt and go roaring down the road... :cool:

Once learned, some things are good to use just because something is better than nothing too.
 
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