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Convert MEP-803a to Inverter?

Thermoguy

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After evaluating my emergency backup power options deep in hurricane country I concluded that diesel is king for my 10KW demand to be split between two existing 5KW manual transfer switches (about 80 ft apart - house & barn) that were originally powered by separate, always problematic portable gasoline generators. My work is cooling diesel and NG fired big iron prime and standby power in the harshest environments, so "robust design" is my specialty. My ideal rig would be diesel inverter versus generator, but diesel inverter pickings are slim and $$$ for only backup/occasional service. Then the Fermen MEK-803a showed up on my radar ... WOW! True, it's not an inverter, but for sure tactical, diesel and Mil-spec design checks some major boxes IMO. I pulled the trigger on one clean (enough), straight (enough) and low (enough) Hobbs and so far all systems are thumbs up for only brief unloaded power-ups to avoid wet-stacking. Just in are the AVR FNQ_R-3 fuse and holder and MOV varistor to upgrade my (older than 2009) Fermen. On the drawing board is to build a 12KW, 55 gal drum +6 x 2KW CB switched heaters hot-water load bank to verify power integrity with particular attention to brushless AVR response. I hope to scope the output and will verify fuel burn, etc. So, that's my pre-ramble.
The title begs the burning question. Yes - No - Maybe So? Mechanical is my world. I'm comfortable enough in the 'sparks and wires' world to troubleshoot and swim in the shallow end and I have all the tools AND there is that sign on my wall that does say "BE CURIOUS", but will inverter conversion require major surgery on the generator or is there a simpler 'work-around'? Also, it remains to be determined about just how good is the existing AVR (with upgrades) and especially resulting wave form factors.
 

peapvp

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After evaluating my emergency backup power options deep in hurricane country I concluded that diesel is king for my 10KW demand to be split between two existing 5KW manual transfer switches (about 80 ft apart - house & barn) that were originally powered by separate, always problematic portable gasoline generators. My work is cooling diesel and NG fired big iron prime and standby power in the harshest environments, so "robust design" is my specialty. My ideal rig would be diesel inverter versus generator, but diesel inverter pickings are slim and $$$ for only backup/occasional service. Then the Fermen MEK-803a showed up on my radar ... WOW! True, it's not an inverter, but for sure tactical, diesel and Mil-spec design checks some major boxes IMO. I pulled the trigger on one clean (enough), straight (enough) and low (enough) Hobbs and so far all systems are thumbs up for only brief unloaded power-ups to avoid wet-stacking. Just in are the AVR FNQ_R-3 fuse and holder and MOV varistor to upgrade my (older than 2009) Fermen. On the drawing board is to build a 12KW, 55 gal drum +6 x 2KW CB switched heaters hot-water load bank to verify power integrity with particular attention to brushless AVR response. I hope to scope the output and will verify fuel burn, etc. So, that's my pre-ramble.
The title begs the burning question. Yes - No - Maybe So? Mechanical is my world. I'm comfortable enough in the 'sparks and wires' world to troubleshoot and swim in the shallow end and I have all the tools AND there is that sign on my wall that does say "BE CURIOUS", but will inverter conversion require major surgery on the generator or is there a simpler 'work-around'? Also, it remains to be determined about just how good is the existing AVR (with upgrades) and especially resulting wave form factors.
Question, why would you go through an inverter if you got already a generator head installed which will do single 120, single 240 and 3P 230 at 60Hz?
Are you trying to operate a data center or your house?
 

Mullaney

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After evaluating my emergency backup power options deep in hurricane country I concluded that diesel is king for my 10KW demand to be split between two existing 5KW manual transfer switches (about 80 ft apart - house & barn) that were originally powered by separate, always problematic portable gasoline generators. My work is cooling diesel and NG fired big iron prime and standby power in the harshest environments, so "robust design" is my specialty. My ideal rig would be diesel inverter versus generator, but diesel inverter pickings are slim and $$$ for only backup/occasional service. Then the Fermen MEK-803a showed up on my radar ... WOW! True, it's not an inverter, but for sure tactical, diesel and Mil-spec design checks some major boxes IMO. I pulled the trigger on one clean (enough), straight (enough) and low (enough) Hobbs and so far all systems are thumbs up for only brief unloaded power-ups to avoid wet-stacking. Just in are the AVR FNQ_R-3 fuse and holder and MOV varistor to upgrade my (older than 2009) Fermen. On the drawing board is to build a 12KW, 55 gal drum +6 x 2KW CB switched heaters hot-water load bank to verify power integrity with particular attention to brushless AVR response. I hope to scope the output and will verify fuel burn, etc. So, that's my pre-ramble.
The title begs the burning question. Yes - No - Maybe So? Mechanical is my world. I'm comfortable enough in the 'sparks and wires' world to troubleshoot and swim in the shallow end and I have all the tools AND there is that sign on my wall that does say "BE CURIOUS", but will inverter conversion require major surgery on the generator or is there a simpler 'work-around'? Also, it remains to be determined about just how good is the existing AVR (with upgrades) and especially resulting wave form factors.
.
I can't really talk to the wave form, but a MEP803 was built to drive electronics in a weapons system. Of course that too was built mil-spec, but always on Mobile power.

Sounds to me like you might want to download the TM's (Technical Manuals) for the machine. Reading through that might answer some questions. And, if you want to run it at 100% it will be happy...
 

Thermoguy

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Question, why would you go through an inverter if you got already a generator head installed which will do single 120, single 240 and 3P 230 at 60Hz?
Are you trying to operate a data center or your house?
That is very true and, of course, I am counting on 1 phase @ 120 & 240 VAC / 60 hz only. The only animals in my barn are my hunting dog and myself, because the top 900 sq ft is my office and down below are where the toys live that maintain this spread and are maintained by me in my shop. So, no data center, but for sure telephonics, telecom and computers and such that support my occupation do require clean power which, admittedly, are perfectly protected by UPS technology. Comments by you and others streaming in response providing actual sine wave of the ARV are greatly appreciated as proof of integrity of power to be expected. In my deep dive of internet including this forum this is the first time seeing exactly what I needed to see and all I had to do was ask, so thank you for that, sir.
 

WWRD99

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After evaluating my emergency backup power options deep in hurricane country I concluded that diesel is king for my 10KW demand to be split between two existing 5KW manual transfer switches (about 80 ft apart - house & barn) that were originally powered by separate, always problematic portable gasoline generators. My work is cooling diesel and NG fired big iron prime and standby power in the harshest environments, so "robust design" is my specialty. My ideal rig would be diesel inverter versus generator, but diesel inverter pickings are slim and $$$ for only backup/occasional service. Then the Fermen MEK-803a showed up on my radar ... WOW! True, it's not an inverter, but for sure tactical, diesel and Mil-spec design checks some major boxes IMO. I pulled the trigger on one clean (enough), straight (enough) and low (enough) Hobbs and so far all systems are thumbs up for only brief unloaded power-ups to avoid wet-stacking. Just in are the AVR FNQ_R-3 fuse and holder and MOV varistor to upgrade my (older than 2009) Fermen. On the drawing board is to build a 12KW, 55 gal drum +6 x 2KW CB switched heaters hot-water load bank to verify power integrity with particular attention to brushless AVR response. I hope to scope the output and will verify fuel burn, etc. So, that's my pre-ramble.
The title begs the burning question. Yes - No - Maybe So? Mechanical is my world. I'm comfortable enough in the 'sparks and wires' world to troubleshoot and swim in the shallow end and I have all the tools AND there is that sign on my wall that does say "BE CURIOUS", but will inverter conversion require major surgery on the generator or is there a simpler 'work-around'? Also, it remains to be determined about just how good is the existing AVR (with upgrades) and especially resulting wave form factors.
I have a question...how do you plan to split the power to 2 different places...barn and home? Run 240 to a splitter and do 120 to each from there? How are you going to keep the legs balanced..ish amp wise?
 

Thermoguy

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.
I can't really talk to the wave form, but a MEP803 was built to drive electronics in a weapons system. Of course that too was built mil-spec, but always on Mobile power.

Sounds to me like you might want to download the TM's (Technical Manuals) for the machine. Reading through that might answer some questions. And, if you want to run it at 100% it will be happy...
You are spot on about the TM's. In fact, I downloaded the TM for my 803a before I ponied up at the auction site. It is certainly a detailed
That is very true and, of course, I am counting on 1 phase @ 120 & 240 VAC / 60 hz only. The only animals in my barn are my hunting dog and myself, because the top 900 sq ft is my office and down below are where the toys live that maintain this spread and are maintained by me in my shop. So, no data center, but for sure telephonics, telecom and computers and such that support my occupation do require clean power which, admittedly, are perfectly protected by UPS technology. Comments by you and others streaming in response providing actual sine wave of the ARV are greatly appreciated as proof of integrity of power to be expected. In my deep dive of internet including this forum this is the first time seeing exactly what I needed to see and all I had to do was ask, so thank you for that, sir.

Addressing your question about why the interest in the inverter ... aside from the (now assuaged) concern about wave form quality, it is a matter of fuel consumption/economy of power production which ostensibly the inverter has an advantage over the brushless AVR approach. Actually, it begs the question: Does an inverter more effectively manage engine power output (i.e. fuel consumption) as a function of load than does the MEP's AVR? Admittedly, I do recall seeing one YouTube video where fuel consumption of an MEP- 802a was very comparable to that of a particular inverter. However, both machines were being operated at a constant, higher-than-mid-load range which is typically a sweet spot so fluctuations in power/rpm did not factor in. Regardless, and I must admit that my application is by no means 'prime power' or even designated for huge number of hours of service (hopefully) annually since it would be more emergency backup unless another H. Katrina or H. Ida shows up.
read, but your first comment about driving critical electronics makes perfect sense and is music to my virtual ears confirming my intuitive sense that the mil-spec would have so demanded. Only vets like yourself would be able to certify that to be the case. Maybe what you've stated is somewhere buried in that TM, but thank you for enlightening me about that.
 

Ray70

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Is the barn fed from the main panel in the house or are you talking about 2 separate service entrance panels?
If the barn is a sub panel off the main house I'd assume its 240V sub, if you were feeding it 5Kw before.
If the barn is a 240 sub off the main and you were using the 2 separate transfer switches simply to be able to run the 2 5Kw generators simultaneously, but not paralleled, feeding the 803A into a single panel then through the existing breaker to the other panel will solve all your problems including balancing the generator legs.
 

2Pbfeet

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Mt. Hamilton, CA
After evaluating my emergency backup power options deep in hurricane country I concluded that diesel is king for my 10KW demand to be split between two existing 5KW manual transfer switches (about 80 ft apart - house & barn) that were originally powered by separate, always problematic portable gasoline generators. My work is cooling diesel and NG fired big iron prime and standby power in the harshest environments, so "robust design" is my specialty. My ideal rig would be diesel inverter versus generator, but diesel inverter pickings are slim and $$$ for only backup/occasional service. Then the Fermen MEK-803a showed up on my radar ... WOW! True, it's not an inverter, but for sure tactical, diesel and Mil-spec design checks some major boxes IMO. I pulled the trigger on one clean (enough), straight (enough) and low (enough) Hobbs and so far all systems are thumbs up for only brief unloaded power-ups to avoid wet-stacking. Just in are the AVR FNQ_R-3 fuse and holder and MOV varistor to upgrade my (older than 2009) Fermen. On the drawing board is to build a 12KW, 55 gal drum +6 x 2KW CB switched heaters hot-water load bank to verify power integrity with particular attention to brushless AVR response. I hope to scope the output and will verify fuel burn, etc. So, that's my pre-ramble.
The title begs the burning question. Yes - No - Maybe So? Mechanical is my world. I'm comfortable enough in the 'sparks and wires' world to troubleshoot and swim in the shallow end and I have all the tools AND there is that sign on my wall that does say "BE CURIOUS", but will inverter conversion require major surgery on the generator or is there a simpler 'work-around'? Also, it remains to be determined about just how good is the existing AVR (with upgrades) and especially resulting wave form factors.
Offshore oil rigs?

What are your anticipated loads at home? Peak kW? kWh/day? Are you thinking this is post hurricane, or off-grid?

I think that the existing '803A waveforms are about as good as it gets in my opinion.

One thing I would point out that I am sure that you know is that diesel engines do best when kept loaded, i.e. warm enough for complete combustion, generally 50% load and up. Inverter generators tend to run along at low speed for much of time before spooling up to meet a load. That leaves them cold, and prone to wet stacking and carbon build up.Some diesels, e.g. certain CAT engines have factory recommendations not to be at high idle for very long. Bottom line, your Lister Petter will need to be periodically load heavily to keep it from developing carbon deposits and the resulting issues.

So, unless you have 5-10kW loads for at least some, or much, of the time, you might be better served, and your diesel healthier, if you ran the output of the '803 into a 10kW battery charger, with enough batteries to take in 20-30kWh of load in a couple of hours, and then ran your barn and house off of the battery bank. There are off the shelf solutions from Panasonic, Enphase, and others, as well as lots of DIY versions from lead acid batteries or used EV automotive battery packs.

So, while anything is doable, no, I would not go down the inverter conversion route on an '803A. If you really want a diesel inverter, I'd build it from scratch.

All the best,

2Pbfeet
 

Thermoguy

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I have a question...how do you plan to split the power to 2 different places...barn and home? Run 240 to a splitter and do 120 to each from there? How are you going to keep the legs balanced..ish amp wise?
Good question. My plan is to wire a 'double take off' 6/3 AWG from L1 and L3 plus neutrals.
The run to the barn transfer switch is only about 6 feet which will terminate at the 30A twist male plug (L1a - L3a - Na).
The barn transfer switch has:
2 @ 120 VAC circuits (L1) for dedicated outlets
2 @ 120 VAC circuits (L3) for dedicated lights
1 (2 combined circuits) @ 240 VAC combined L1+L3 for 240 VAC submerged well pump controlled by Variable Frequency Drive controller
NOTE: The 'Freq Drive' always provides 'soft start' on the well pump AND constant line pressure target is the control criteria, all mitigates power surges.

The run to the house transfer switch is about 80 feet which will terminate at the 30A twist male plug (L1b - L3b - Nb).
The residence transfer switch has:
3 @ 120 VAC circuits (L1) for dedicated outlets for dedicated outlets, lights + 1 refrigerator
3 @ 120 VAC circuits (L3) for dedicated lights for dedicated outlets, lights + 1 refrigerator
 

Thermoguy

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Offshore oil rigs?

What are your anticipated loads at home? Peak kW? kWh/day? Are you thinking this is post hurricane, or off-grid?

I think that the existing '803A waveforms are about as good as it gets in my opinion.

One thing I would point out that I am sure that you know is that diesel engines do best when kept loaded, i.e. warm enough for complete combustion, generally 50% load and up. Inverter generators tend to run along at low speed for much of time before spooling up to meet a load. That leaves them cold, and prone to wet stacking and carbon build up. Some diesels, e.g. certain CAT engines have factory recommendations not to be at high idle for very long. Bottom line, your Lister Petter will need to be periodically load heavily to keep it from developing carbon deposits and the resulting issues.

So, unless you have 5-10kW loads for at least some, or much, of the time, you might be better served, and your diesel healthier, if you ran the output of the '803 into a 10kW battery charger, with enough batteries to take in 20-30kWh of load in a couple of hours, and then ran your barn and house off of the battery bank. There are off the shelf solutions from Panasonic, Enphase, and others, as well as lots of DIY versions from lead acid batteries or used EV automotive battery packs.

So, while anything is doable, no, I would not go down the inverter conversion route on an '803A. If you really want a diesel inverter, I'd build it from scratch.

All the best,

2Pbfeet
Jack-up rigs GOM, North Sea, Aramco and production mostly GOM - Absolutely the best of the best to work with - an honor and privilege. Also, land-based prime power, etc. including waste heat recovery - tropical and sub-tropical - all time zones. Who needs sleep?

New information: Barn and residence have separate 200 amp services. Of course that will have no bearing on what MEP-803a sees. I detailed each transfer switch in previous response which likely combine to distribute loads, although I have never had luxury of doing a load profile study. The well pump is always doing something as directed by the freq-drive along with all the other very distributed loads over outlets, lighting and refrigerators.

I am considering purchasing just such a monitoring/recording device for this installation. Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated by me and the newest addition to our family - Genny.
 

2Pbfeet

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Jack-up rigs GOM, North Sea, Aramco and production mostly GOM - Absolutely the best of the best to work with - an honor and privilege. Also, land-based prime power, etc. including waste heat recovery - tropical and sub-tropical - all time zones. Who needs sleep?

New information: Barn and residence have separate 200 amp services. Of course that will have no bearing on what MEP-803a sees. I detailed each transfer switch in previous response which likely combine to distribute loads, although I have never had luxury of doing a load profile study. The well pump is always doing something as directed by the freq-drive along with all the other very distributed loads over outlets, lighting and refrigerators.

I am considering purchasing just such a monitoring/recording device for this installation. Any recommendations would be greatly appreciated by me and the newest addition to our family - Genny.
Sounds like fun.

The VFD pump controller will make life easier for your generator. As a general rule, I would suggest line reactors on the 3 phase side (if it is 3 phase), and some extra toroids or an EMI snubber on the input side. (E.g. something like this one 20A@240V)
The VFD controllers are great, but they can put a fair amount of electrical noise on the system. I once saw a square toroid made out of black iron pipe elbows, nipples and unions. Apparently it worked a treat.

I think a pair of ammeters to cover each leg, or combined amp+volt meters might do everything you need. If you really want recording, they do make data loggers. Personally, I have not found inexpensive ones, especially not loggers that capture enough data to find sub Hz transients, but I don't know why you want the logging and thus what data rate you want. @kloppk makes a remote start kit that I believe has some data logging (Every 10seconds?).

All the best,

2Pbfeet
 
Last edited:

DieselAddict

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I don’t think converting it to an inverter style generator is practical. You can add an external hybrid inverter into the mix to give you more flexibility and fuel efficiency.

Since I put in my system which has Solar with battery storage, I run the generator far less for outages than I used to.
 

Ray70

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It sounds like you are essentially only trying to power a small number of dedicated outlets, fridge, some lights and the well pump.
This is almost no load at all for that 803!
Even the well pump is nothing. The 803 will run your entire house and barn, and it will be much happier over time if you run it at a moderate load.
Long runs at very light loads will eventually lead to wet stacking, a buildup of carbon in the muffler.
 

Thermoguy

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Sounds like fun.

The VFD pump controller will make life easier for your generator. As a general rule, I would suggest line reactors on the 3 phase side (if it is 3 phase), and some extra toroids or an EMI snubber on the input side. (E.g. something like this one 20A@240V)
The VFD controllers are great, but they can put a fair amount of electrical noise on the system. I once saw a square toroid made out of black iron pipe elbows, nipples and unions. Apparently it worked a treat.

I think a pair of ammeters to cover each leg, or combined amp+volt meters might do everything you need. If you really want recording, they do make data loggers. Personally, I have not found inexpensive ones, especially not loggers that capture enough data to find sub Hz transients, but I don't know why you want the logging and thus what data rate you want. @kloppk makes a remote start kit that I believe has some data logging (Every 10seconds?).

All the best,

2Pbfeet
Just now seeing this one. True that ref VFD pump controller - it's a dream alternative to the conventional pump tank ... pump ON @ 40 psi - pump OFF @ 60 psi constant cycling along with power surge that eventually killed my original submerged pump. Now we enjoy continuous 60 psig, the pump just hums along only sipping watts or none at all until so directed ... never stressed and the only pump tank is a 2 gallon (no controls) diaphragm type that somehow makes the VFD system happy. No, I don't sell them. I just give credit to Grundfos where credit is due.

Your point about VFD and noise strikes a nerve. I've been lucky enough to provide some very slick custom engineered VFD's (thanks to in-genius colleague collaboration) on some Saudi rigs where we had to take precautions involving potentially destructive electronic harmonics issues caused by voltage spikes that occur when IGBT type transistors in a VFD switch on to create a simulated AC signal, but that can be overcome by providing capacitors between the diodes. Does that ring familiar? Think Metal Oxide Varistor fix on post-2009 MEP AVR's.

About data logging ... my work with the big boys who were doing microgrid designs in PR, especially post H. Maria, etc. was reason for my data logging envy and so was their budget for tech toys. My plan is to wait for some genius to maybe create an iPhone app.

Thanks for your reply.
 

Thermoguy

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I don’t think converting it to an inverter style generator is practical. You can add an external hybrid inverter into the mix to give you more flexibility and fuel efficiency.

Since I put in my system which has Solar with battery storage, I run the generator far less for outages than I used to.
Wow! In my (keep in mind that I'm still riding the generator learning curve) deep search for generator to inverter conversion it was stumbling onto the 'hybrid inverter' that looked to me might have the potential effect, at least, to accomplish what I'm after. Do I read you right - that you are using an external hybrid inverter (EHI) on your rig? Now, it's my take that the EHI would best work exactly as you have it set up which is essentially generator based battery maintenance when insolation isn't getting it done. Yes? Not sure how the hybrid inverter controls would effect 'on-demand' power versus battery charging mode that it's designed to do.

Keep in mind that there's nothing about what I'm doing that involves PV. The thermal efficiency of my residence, at least, versus the barn/office/workshop, is actually very high by design. I've run the numbers for PV and amortization even with subsidies just don't work out. And, I happen to have ideal roof pitches (main roof @ 12/12 and 'shed' roof over porch @ 4/12) both with southern orientation. So, the 12/12 is ideal for winter and the 4/12 is ideal for summer. But, the PV installed and operating numbers still don't beat my overall heating and cooling loads (the major electrical load) which are all handled by water source heat pump (geothermal) systems. I will admit that the barn/office/workshop COULD be a candidate (upper floor is 900 s.f. only with insulated walls and floor) if only I had designed that symmetrical building with more insolation friendly roof orientation, because half the roof is 8/12 east and half is 8/12 west orientation.
 

Thermoguy

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It sounds like you are essentially only trying to power a small number of dedicated outlets, fridge, some lights and the well pump.
This is almost no load at all for that 803!
Even the well pump is nothing. The 803 will run your entire house and barn, and it will be much happier over time if you run it at a moderate load.
Long runs at very light loads will eventually lead to wet stacking, a buildup of carbon in the muffler.
Most residential well pumps are 1 hp or less, but mine is actually 2.3 hp (1.73 KW) at max output used in conjunction with my 4 water source heat pump systems. So, that does up the shared load factor.
 

DieselAddict

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Wow! In my (keep in mind that I'm still riding the generator learning curve) deep search for generator to inverter conversion it was stumbling onto the 'hybrid inverter' that looked to me might have the potential effect, at least, to accomplish what I'm after. Do I read you right - that you are using an external hybrid inverter (EHI) on your rig? Now, it's my take that the EHI would best work exactly as you have it set up which is essentially generator based battery maintenance when insolation isn't getting it done. Yes? Not sure how the hybrid inverter controls would effect 'on-demand' power versus battery charging mode that it's designed to do.

Keep in mind that there's nothing about what I'm doing that involves PV. The thermal efficiency of my residence, at least, versus the barn/office/workshop, is actually very high by design. I've run the numbers for PV and amortization even with subsidies just don't work out. And, I happen to have ideal roof pitches (main roof @ 12/12 and 'shed' roof over porch @ 4/12) both with southern orientation. So, the 12/12 is ideal for winter and the 4/12 is ideal for summer. But, the PV installed and operating numbers still don't beat my overall heating and cooling loads (the major electrical load) which are all handled by water source heat pump (geothermal) systems. I will admit that the barn/office/workshop COULD be a candidate (upper floor is 900 s.f. only with insulated walls and floor) if only I had designed that symmetrical building with more insolation friendly roof orientation, because half the roof is 8/12 east and half is 8/12 west orientation.
I have a pair of Schneider XWPRO6848 inverters. They can provide around 14kw continuously and 1.5x that for 30 min. They can take utility power OR generator power and charge batteries. They can also supplement the generator power when you need more than it can provide. You can bring in other power sources such as wind/solar (nuclear, ha) for battery charging/load supply. The batteries I'm using are ~40kw/hr worth of capacity from crashed electric cars batteries.

Even if you don't use solar, If you have time of use rates, you can charge the bank when the rates are low and consume when the rates are high. The hybrid setups can be configured in a number of ways. One big benefit for me here is all the critical loads are basically on UPS. Unless you were baking a pie or drying a load of clothes we don't even know the power went out.

The thing to do is to outline your power supply/management goals then look to see what gear gets you there.
 
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