frodobaggins
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exactamundo, which is why we have the rule
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Steel Soldiers now has a few new forums, read more about it at: New Munitions Forums!
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Good grief! It's not "against the law" to stand around at an auction and discuss the merits of or problems with a certain item. It's not "against the law" either to say to your friend, "what do you think she'll bring" It is against the law to engage in collusion, which is price fixing. This site is much better off the way it is--no discussion; I support that 100%. But please remember tire kicking with the boys and price fixing are two separate issues.
AceHigh
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In this case, maybe we are standing around, maybe even bidding and the auctioneer fails to mention the engine is trash. When it comes to vehicles, an engine is kind of important!
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Only slightly..only slightly..
KsM715
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Not to 
but say 3 guys are at a live auction. 2 guys in camo and obviously know each other, one guy just hanging by himself next to the truck all morning. All three intend to bid on the same truck, the auctioneer can tell these 3 guys are interested, just before the bidding starts the two guys in camo start talking to each other about the truck, one says "its got a blown tranny, and those are expensive, I wouldnt give over XXX for it". Guy #3 over hears this and walks away knowing he cant afford a new tranny. Now to the auctioneer, is this colusion, or just tire kicking? I dont think Chris, aka, SteelSoldiers wants to pay a lawyer to find out when he gets acused of it.
but say 3 guys are at a live auction. 2 guys in camo and obviously know each other, one guy just hanging by himself next to the truck all morning. All three intend to bid on the same truck, the auctioneer can tell these 3 guys are interested, just before the bidding starts the two guys in camo start talking to each other about the truck, one says "its got a blown tranny, and those are expensive, I wouldnt give over XXX for it". Guy #3 over hears this and walks away knowing he cant afford a new tranny. Now to the auctioneer, is this colusion, or just tire kicking? I dont think Chris, aka, SteelSoldiers wants to pay a lawyer to find out when he gets acused of it.
datsunaholic
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And yet we can talk about eBay auction items all we want.
How is that different?
I realize that the total ban is to completely avoid touching gray areas. And it's his forum and he can set the rules, but having rules specific to GL (a private corporation) & GSA, and not having the same rules for other auction sites doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Why stop there? What about discussing craigslist ads? Not just private parties are selling at those, and look at how many folks are posting about how some guys (and companies) try to screw over their potential "customers". I haven't seen GL make any attempt at "full disclosure" of problems, except at a few sites where the employees are actually competent. I don't see GSA being any better- I mean, I saw a vehicle listed today that stated "Runs OK, doesn't start". Please tell me HOW that's remotely possible? They "cover their bases" by saying that "parts may be missing or damaged". You combat that by making preview runs, but it's not possible for most people to do that themselves for every item they are interested in. So if someone said that the engine on something was locked up, then that means either it saved me a trip OR maybe I'd want to check it out myself and see if it's true- it COULD be something simple. Especially if that particular deficiency isn't noted in the listing. Yes, there's the possibility that someone is lying. It happens all the time, and eventually it comes back to bite the ones that do the lying.
How is that different?
I realize that the total ban is to completely avoid touching gray areas. And it's his forum and he can set the rules, but having rules specific to GL (a private corporation) & GSA, and not having the same rules for other auction sites doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Why stop there? What about discussing craigslist ads? Not just private parties are selling at those, and look at how many folks are posting about how some guys (and companies) try to screw over their potential "customers". I haven't seen GL make any attempt at "full disclosure" of problems, except at a few sites where the employees are actually competent. I don't see GSA being any better- I mean, I saw a vehicle listed today that stated "Runs OK, doesn't start". Please tell me HOW that's remotely possible? They "cover their bases" by saying that "parts may be missing or damaged". You combat that by making preview runs, but it's not possible for most people to do that themselves for every item they are interested in. So if someone said that the engine on something was locked up, then that means either it saved me a trip OR maybe I'd want to check it out myself and see if it's true- it COULD be something simple. Especially if that particular deficiency isn't noted in the listing. Yes, there's the possibility that someone is lying. It happens all the time, and eventually it comes back to bite the ones that do the lying.
KsM715
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They way I see it, Ebay probably doesnt know we exist, or even care. They dont care what the final price is. GL on the other hand does because their profits are directly tied to final sale price. GL knows we are here and what we are about, and you know thru their cust. service that they really dont give a da## about us as individuals. Not to mention that fact that there are some "theories" that items get pulled because the price is not what they think it should be.
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The biggest thing I believe for allowing Ebay and Craigslist is that most Craigslist and Ebay ads are posted by the owner.
djimmy31
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Ebay does care what an item sells for as they are just like govliquidation but on a much bigger scale. When I sell on ebay I pay more in fees the higher the item sells for.
What kills me about gl is they talk about preview this and that, but half the time I can't get anything scheduled but a 20 minute look or they don't show up so it's a wasted trip. Which sucks because when I take a chance on the truck and it's **** boat anchor I'm the one stuck with it. I know I know buy from somewhere else........
What kills me about gl is they talk about preview this and that, but half the time I can't get anything scheduled but a 20 minute look or they don't show up so it's a wasted trip. Which sucks because when I take a chance on the truck and it's **** boat anchor I'm the one stuck with it. I know I know buy from somewhere else........
ida34
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I know of no prosecutions for collusion for ebay auctions. There are prosecutions for collusion at government DRMO auctions. This is documented and has been discussed. The collusion amounted to one guy telling the other "you get that one, I will get this one and we stay out of each other's way. " This is not a quote from the actual prosecution but these pasts posts started out by some people "claiming" a certain auction item which is clearly collusion. The rule about the posting is to make sure no "secret" code is used to be a vehicle for collusion. Chris wants to make sure he keeps the site away from ANY accusation of the site being used for collusion. The only way to do that is to not allow these posts. Again, there have been prosecutions for collusion on government auctions in the past. Collusion in government auctions is illegal. I am not sure on ebay but if any collusion prosecutions happen because of ebay we will probably not be able to post ebay auctions again.
A lot of people spend hours checking for these great deal auctions or sales and when someone negates this by posting the people feel put out when they loose. I don't really buy into this as I say the person that wants it the most gets it by paying the most but that is a concern when posting auctions on the site.
M1075
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Dang, I bid on the truck, but it looks like 'ole 8500 ended up with it.
moleary
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What law are they breaking by discussing an auction item? Do you have any actual first-hand information about this? For this to be illegal you would have to be referring to a federal law, or a law that has been adopted under the UCC in almost every state.
I don't ask this question to be snide, I'm sincerely interested in what law this might be violating.
moleary
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Ok - no need to respond to my above post M16 - I should have finished the thread before posting. I think someone is being led down the primrose path on this one. I can not imagine, nor do I think anyone could actually point to any real cases where the federal government was able to bring a case for collusion against two individuals involved in an auction (with respect ida34).
If someone (particularly someone at GL) has suggested that discussing their auctions could result in prosecution (including discussing whether or not you plan on bidding or what you plan to bid) I think that bears review.
Collusion typically involves efforts to drive UP prices by a group of individuals or companies through fraudulent or illegal means. In an auction it is reasonable to think that two individuals would not be able to affectively deprive GL of any of their rights since the auction is open to so many people.
So unless someone is ready to specifically point to case law that suggests two people (or a small group of people who make up a small portion of the market) can be prosecuted for collusion by discussing an item or strategizing an auction tactic, let's call a spade a spade: GL is an advertiser and that's enough of a reason to not discuss their auctions if they (and the site owner) don't want us to on the site. That should not in any way discourage people from setting up a site to discuss GL auctions (or auctions in general).
Just my
If someone (particularly someone at GL) has suggested that discussing their auctions could result in prosecution (including discussing whether or not you plan on bidding or what you plan to bid) I think that bears review.
Collusion typically involves efforts to drive UP prices by a group of individuals or companies through fraudulent or illegal means. In an auction it is reasonable to think that two individuals would not be able to affectively deprive GL of any of their rights since the auction is open to so many people.
So unless someone is ready to specifically point to case law that suggests two people (or a small group of people who make up a small portion of the market) can be prosecuted for collusion by discussing an item or strategizing an auction tactic, let's call a spade a spade: GL is an advertiser and that's enough of a reason to not discuss their auctions if they (and the site owner) don't want us to on the site. That should not in any way discourage people from setting up a site to discuss GL auctions (or auctions in general).
Just my
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I did s search on Google and couldn't come up with the accual law but if you Google "collusion law" you will get alot of reading. I do know of people being covicted of this. Anything that could be seen as bringing the price down on an item is "techically" cosidered collusion.
While I don't think they will arrest you at a live auction for you and a buddy agreeing not to bid against each other I have seen people being asked to leave. I will say that alot of times at small auctions the auction company is guilty of it also. I'll admit I've done it and almost everybody that's ever bid on much has done it but we don't need a record of the event here
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moleary
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Thanks for the reply m16, and I appreciate your feedback. I think its important for people to know that if they do something that drops the selling price of an item that does not mean they are even remotely guilty of collusion. To rise to the level of being actionable under the Sherman Act you would really have to have developed a reasonably sophisticated and specific agreement with the market of buyers to drive down a bid. Giving your opinion on item condition (protected by the 1st amendment), or "claiming" an auction, doesn't do it. If I know that my buddy is bidding on something and choose not to bid on it as a result that doesn't make us guilty of collusion. Now if all the bidders circle up and make agreements not to bid above a certain point or to keep the bids low then you certainly have the potential for a case - but that's not happening as a result of SS post.
Like I said, GL being an advertiser is reason enough to not upset them, but so far I can't see a legal issue.
djimmy31
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Bottom line is on here we can't talk about gl auctions and just like other things, we can go to other forums if he we like. I personally think it's dumb and I think collusion is a fairly stupid law but it is what is.
If collusion is considered a buddy and I being at a auction and telling him I'm not going to bid against him on a auction item I would say we are all guilty of it. I mean really why would 2 buddies bid against each other on an item. I think this is especially true of an item that has multiple items in the lot. Also if I'm standing around a car looking it over and notice there's no transmission I would probably say something to the guy next to me. I've been to a ton of **** auction and honestly auctioneers pray off of uneducated people.
If collusion is considered a buddy and I being at a auction and telling him I'm not going to bid against him on a auction item I would say we are all guilty of it. I mean really why would 2 buddies bid against each other on an item. I think this is especially true of an item that has multiple items in the lot. Also if I'm standing around a car looking it over and notice there's no transmission I would probably say something to the guy next to me. I've been to a ton of **** auction and honestly auctioneers pray off of uneducated people.