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Alternator Crashed

Keith_J

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There is no alternator made that will charge "stone dead" batteries. Not sure what your point is here?

Most motorcycle alternators will. These utilize permanent magnet fields, shunting each phase (they are 3 phase, just like the regulated field electromagnet alternators) to achieve stable, "regulated" voltage. They are just much less efficient, the regulator must dump considerable electrical energy as heat, hence they are mounted in a cool place, usually in a shielded slipstream.

But yes, any alternator with slip rings will NOT charge a dead battery.
 

Keith_J

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It seems an overlooked item concerning these alternators is the fact that they have a brush.
I've had two fail because the brush had either worn down too short to reach the com. or had gummed up and did not contact the com.
Check out TM 9-2920-225-34, both found here on SS

You are THE MAN with the answer.. I was driving for a friend today and had the alternator problem, voltage in the yellow. Didn't have a voltmeter but used a test light and both B+ and sense had battery voltage, the sense turned off with master power switch.

Adjustment didn't work. Bet it is gummed brushes but since we were at the monster truck jam, I didn't tear into it.
 

Somemedic

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Hobart, IN
Just put one of Wolverine Tech's/Avenge USA's alts in this past weekend.

Works well and wasnt too difficult to install, although included instructions with pics or diagrams in the proper sequence would have been welcomed. Other than that, the alt is functioning, warrantied, and cheaper to rebuild than its pred. Kit was cheaper than the rebuild, cant beat that.

The alt and kit looks very heavy duty with graded bolts. Im pleased with the purchase.
 

Stan Leschert

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So here is a really dumb question.... Do generators work in the same manner? Ie...do they require batt voltage do start the process? It has been way too many years since they tried to teach this to me and now I'm finally stuck with a finicky M-135 with a generator. Another question which wasn't covered in the TM. How do you adjust the Delco Remy voltage Reg for a higher output? Sorry to hijack the thread, but I thought that I would ask the smart people, and from what I can see, you all know WAY more than me! Thanks.
 

Keith_J

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So here is a really dumb question.... Do generators work in the same manner? Ie...do they require batt voltage do start the process? It has been way too many years since they tried to teach this to me and now I'm finally stuck with a finicky M-135 with a generator. Another question which wasn't covered in the TM. How do you adjust the Delco Remy voltage Reg for a higher output? Sorry to hijack the thread, but I thought that I would ask the smart people, and from what I can see, you all know WAY more than me! Thanks.
They can but should not be relied upon. What happens is the field iron can have residual magnetism which then would provide enough stator current to sustain. Because a dead flat battery has higher internal resistance, this can work.

As far as adjustment of the Delco Remy VR, I do not know.
 

avengeusa

New member
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Location
MI USA
Just put one of Wolverine Tech's/Avenge USA's alts in this past weekend.

Works well and wasnt too difficult to install, although included instructions with pics or diagrams in the proper sequence would have been welcomed. Other than that, the alt is functioning, warrantied, and cheaper to rebuild than its pred. Kit was cheaper than the rebuild, cant beat that.

The alt and kit looks very heavy duty with graded bolts. Im pleased with the purchase.
Thanks a lot
 

derby

Member
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Location
S.E. MI.
I have seen the Wolverine tech. Alt. kit up close. It is a first class set up. When mine qiuts I will be installing one on my rig.
 

PsycoBob

Member
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Location
Auburn, NY
Some one-wire alternators use that residual magnetism trick. Tweaking the field (rotor) resistance and the regulator's design the required startup can be quite low.

AFAIK, most brushed AC gensets use a relatively low field voltage to allow self-exitation, sometimes coupled with a special regulator circuit that'll store power from very low voltages to pulse the field long enough to start producing enough power to run itself.
 

stumps

Active member
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Maryland
There is no inherent reason why both DC generators and DC alternators couldn't self build their fields without the help of a battery... But in practice, economics doesn't allow that to work out for DC alternators. The problem is the result of the electronics needed to regulate the voltage and to rectify the current coming out of an alternator.

In the days of generators, regulators were exclusively electro mechanical. When the voltage coming out of a DC generator was too low, the relay contacts that controlled the field were closed, and the reverse current relay was open so that 100% of the residual voltage coming out of the armature went to the field. If the field resistance was high enough, so that the field current didn't swamp out the residual power coming out of the generator, it would essentially lift itself up by its boot straps, slowly at first, and the voltage and power would rise until it was self sustaining.

The DC alternator has never had that luxury. Because the field needs to be DC excited, there has to be some method of converting the residual AC voltages that come out of the stator windings to the DC needed to excite the field. The problem is the very diode rectifiers needed to do this waste a lot of the available residual AC power needed to let the alternator self excite. Each stator winding has two diodes in series with its output. That wastes about 0.7V for each diode, for 1.4V total.

The problem is compounded: In DC generator systems, there needs to be a way to disconnect the generator from the battery so when the engine is stopped, the battery won't drive the generator as a motor. DC generator regulators had a reverse current relay that preformed this task. If the generator wasn't putting out sufficient voltage and current, in the right direction, the relay would keep the generator disconnected from the load. DC alternators don't have this relay. They use the diodes that rectify the stator currents to do the task. As a result, any current the alternator tries to make with the residual magnetism heads straight into the electrical system, and is gobbled up before it can help the field winding build.

And to further complicate the modern DC alternator's life, it has an electronic voltage regulator that needs a certain amount of power just to make the transistors in the regulator switch on so that the current made by the residual field magnetism can pass to the field windings and help the alternator self excite.... the camel's back has been well and thoroughly broken!

With the addition of a reverse current relay, and a direct excitation path from the stators to the field, a DC alternator could be made so that would self excite. But the car manufacturers don't see that as being of any value in a system that already has an expensive rechargeable battery, so they aren't willing to waste the money, space, weight, or power that such a circuit would take.

Self exciting portable gensets, are a different subject entirely. Because they have no battery by design, they have the direct self-excitation circuit built in. They also have no regulator, they rely on the non linear magnetization characteristics of the field to reach an equilibrium that is close enough to run normal AC loads.

More than you wanted to know, I am sure.

-Chuck
 

PsycoBob

Member
212
11
18
Location
Auburn, NY
Chuck, some Ac-delco 1-wire alternators use a funky rectifier wiring to get around the drain issue. Most DC alternators are a 3-phase design, and more modern units are wired Y, allowing 4 pairs of diodes, and slightly higher idle/max output without any other changes. I'll see if I can figure out which computer I left the wiring diagrams on...

Chuck's last paragrapsh should start "Cheap batteryless gensets." I have self-exiting brushed genset that uses real electronic regulation- as do most of the ones I've seen. Cheap brushless units use a separate stator winding with a capacitor to 'regulate.' I was about to say I've never seen a brushed unit with a craptastic inductive 'regulator' but I'm still trying to figure out how to reassemble my dad's Fairbanks-Morse light plant. As best I can tell, it used part of the start circuit to make juice for the rotor when it was running. (do we have a :banghead: icon?)

Expensive brushless units are essentially 2 generators: one with a stationary field inducing AC current in one end of the rotor, and a rectifier to feed DC to the field on the other rotor, which then produces the real output of the generator in the output stator. Brushed and good brushless units both use similar regulators, just different methods of getting that juice to the rotor. Confused yet? Diagrams would make this easier, I suppose.

There is a DC alternator that has a bit of a twist- permanent magnets and a regulator that can reinforce or suppress the magnetic field they make. It allows both self-exitation and insanely high low-rpm output. According to the PR fluff, it pays for itself in fuel if the vehicle spends a lot of time idling with big electrical loads- like fire trucks. Price tag is huge- on the order of $1800, last I checked. They have 14v & 28v editions.

Automotive Alternators - Ecoair Corp. - ecotech 28V 165A, high output alternators
 
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