Modern multifuel redesign?

[TexAndy]

We all love the ability to pour just about anything that burns in there... but the thing I constantly see is "My deuce is soooo wimpy!"

Well... yes. ~130 HP is what we have to live with. Unless you turn up the fuel a bit. But that will only take you so far before you run the risk of generating too much HP for the engine to physically handle.

So if you were going to redesign the LD-465 type with modern materials, machining processes, metallurgy, etc... as well as with all the advances in IC engine design that have been made in the last 40 years, what would that engine look like and what kind of capability would it have?

Doesn't even have to be a remake of the LDT/LDS engines. Could be something completely new. The only requirement is that it has to be able to safely burn just as many different types of fuel as the LD-465

I realize this isn't exactly a practical exercise... mostly just a learning tool.

 

[Flyingvan911]

It would be cool to see what the multifuels could do with a stronger design but it sure would be expensive.

 

[m16ty]

IMO it's the multifuel capability that limits the HP. Mainly the high compression.

I doubt you could even build a multifuel that could pass todays regulations.

Other than that, I pretty lost as to how you would go about building a modern multifuel.

 

[Westech]

Pussy engine? My deuce HAULED! I had a LDS Injection pump and rebuilt the top end. Here is the trick to a "drivable Deuce" #1 clean fuel filters #2 adjust the valves #3 add a pyro and up the fuel rate #4 11:00 tires for more top speed. That will Help a TON!! Trust me I am a Doctor.

Love Westy

 

[TexAndy]

I'm going to 11r20s at some point, for sure.

I just don't know how thrilled I am with turning up the fuel. Seems risky. Right now the ldt are plentiful... but it won't be that way forever.

And without doing that, the taller tires just means the truck is going to bog down on hills even worse. Not too much of a problem here, tho...


Anyways, this isn't really an exercise in how to get more performance out of the LDT-465. It's more of a theoretical "If the army once again put out a request for a multi-fuel engine, what would be the result given the engineering advances made since the last such order?"

 

[FireFighterHill]

If I were to redesign one id want it to have sleeved pistons, forged rotating assembly forged valves. An IP that is easy and inexpensive to rebuild and to adjust. piston oil sprayers, efficient oil supply to the heads and efficient oil return to the pan/pickup area anti oil windage built into the block. CNC'd heads. Compound turbo setup. with air to air intercooler. Level 10 hardware through out.

 

[JasonS]

Hercules Engines D4800 & D5000

We all love the ability to pour just about anything that burns in there... but the thing I constantly see is "My deuce is soooo wimpy!"

Well... yes. ~130 HP is what we have to live with. Unless you turn up the fuel a bit. But that will only take you so far before you run the risk of generating too much HP for the engine to physically handle.

So if you were going to redesign the LD-465 type with modern materials, machining processes, metallurgy, etc... as well as with all the advances in IC engine design that have been made in the last 40 years, what would that engine look like and what kind of capability would it have?

Doesn't even have to be a remake of the LDT/LDS engines. Could be something completely new. The only requirement is that it has to be able to safely burn just as many different types of fuel as the LD-465

I realize this isn't exactly a practical exercise... mostly just a learning tool.

 

[m-35tom]

If I were to redesign one id want it to have sleeved pistons, forged rotating assembly forged valves. An IP that is easy and inexpensive to rebuild and to adjust. piston oil sprayers, efficient oil supply to the heads and efficient oil return to the pan/pickup area anti oil windage built into the block. CNC'd heads. Compound turbo setup. with air to air intercooler. Level 10 hardware through out.

most of what you list it already has. sleeves it has. forged crank not needed. the ip already is easy to work on and parts are not that much compared to many. the ldt has oil jets for the pistons & the lds has piston channels. 200 hp is easily obtainable, just get gauges and turn up the pump. the short commings are in the head design. it has long been said that hp lives in the heads. needed are new design head castings with bigger valves. my .69 od and the fuel up goes up hills (in 5th) a stock engine would need 4th gear for.
(even with the a/c on)

tom

 

[m16ty]

CNC'd heads.

How do CNC'd heads help? Hand machined heads are every bit as good as heads machined on a CNC machine. Granted, a CNC will run circles around a machinist as far as speed is concerned but all you are gaining is the speed at which the part is machined.

A innercooler would be a nice addition.

 

[TexAndy]

most of what you list it already has. sleeves it has. forged crank not needed. the ip already is easy to work on and parts are not that much compared to many. the ldt has oil jets for the pistons & the lds has piston channels. 200 hp is easily obtainable, just get gauges and turn up the pump. the short commings are in the head design. it has long been said that hp lives in the heads. needed are new design head castings with bigger valves. my .69 od and the fuel up goes up hills (in 5th) a stock engine would need 4th gear for.
(even with the a/c on)

tom

Where did you get the different over drive gear and how much did it cost?

eta: Holy crap, your speed at 2600 rpm with the 43" tires is almost 72 mph!

What's it like to drive a deuce that fast?

 

[dozer1]

In addition to many of the improvements mentioned, I would want to throw in there a computer with sensors all over everywhere that made adjustments to the IP and injectors as needed to efficiently burn whatever you threw in there. Alot of guys probably would hate that but I am sure most modern MV's have an abundance of that sh**

 

[Wrench Wench]

As long as there was a robust analogue backup that can still get appreciable optimization out of the engine's operation if the digital computer gets EMPed.


m16ty brings up an interesting point. I've wondered why more of these trucks don't run intercoolers.

 

[fuzzytoaster]

In addition to many of the improvements mentioned, I would want to throw in there a computer with sensors all over everywhere that made adjustments to the IP and injectors as needed to efficiently burn whatever you threw in there. Alot of guys probably would hate that but I am sure most modern MV's have an abundance of that sh**

I agree but add that the engine be able to function well/be adjusted without the electronics incase they were not operable for what ever means.

 

[fuzzytoaster]

As long as there was a robust analogue backup that can still get appreciable optimization out of the engine's operation if the digital computer gets EMPed.


m16ty brings up an interesting point. I've wondered why more of these trucks don't run intercoolers.

Hey! Beat me by a second! But ditto.

 

[area52]

Where did you get the different over drive gear and how much did it cost?

eta: Holy crap, your speed at 2600 rpm with the 43" tires is almost 72 mph!

What's it like to drive a deuce that fast?

NO - the question is: How do you stop a deuce going that fast?

 

[Westech]

NO - the question is: How do you stop a deuce going that fast?

when you smash in to something.

 

[mcmullag]

party pooper

I'm not trying to rain on anybody's parade or anything but dont ya think
Caterpillar, Cummins, Waukesha, Perkins, or other longtime diesel manufacturers that are still producing today, have kinda figured out the best combustion stuff? They must spend hundreds of thousands of hours per year amongst their engineers
of all ages to keep trying to perfect combustion and engine durability, etc.
It seems like messing around with the multifuel more would be like trying to
improve a steam engine or buggy whip effectiveness. I'm just saying.....

 

[TexAndy]

I'm not trying to rain on anybody's parade or anything but dont ya think
Caterpillar, Cummins, Waukesha, Perkins, or other longtime diesel manufacturers that are still producing today, have kinda figured out the best combustion stuff? They must spend hundreds of thousands of hours per year amongst their engineers
of all ages to keep trying to perfect combustion and engine durability, etc.
It seems like messing around with the multifuel more would be like trying to
improve a steam engine or buggy whip effectiveness. I'm just saying.....

Not really.

It's just a different application that there isn't much market for. Consequently, they haven't invested time and money into it since their only large-scale buyer decided they don't need a multifuel capability any longer.

That doesn't make the technology useless or obsolete. Can you pour 100% waster motor oil in a modern diesel truck engine with any confidence about the engine's reliability afterwards? How much gasoline can you run in it before it fails?

 

[hemichallenger]

It is all about the epa. They have made the diesel engine into something that is far from it's roots. That is why cat is out of the truck market for now.

 

[four-thirteen]

Modern multifuel engines exist. Scania modifies compression ignition engines to burn ethanol, which is quite a feat, considering the low cetane number for ethanol. Mann builds a similar engine. So long as the fuel is free of particulate matter that could damage or clog the injector pump or injectors, there is no reason that motor couldn't burn everything an LDS can.

On a more pragmatic side, I don't think any fleet on the planet would burn waste motor oil in their rigs. The marginal savings in fuel costs would be far offset in risk from damage from particulates. Other than to small shop owners and hobbyists the capacity to burn waste oil is useless to most customers. In addition, waste oil contain heavy metals from the babbit in the bearings.