Full hydro help needed...smart math people!

[RANDYDIRT]

I posted this in the thread that you started with this specific question, but for everybody else who doesn't like to search (and because I think it is a cool unit and I'd like to see somebody try it out), here it is again:
Surplus Center - 9.7 CU IN STEERING VALVE (TORQUE GENERATOR)

Forgive me, but how does this work? does it amplify torque on the output shaft? If so, this may be the coolest and cheapest way to power steering.

Dirt

 

[jesusgatos]

I posted this in the thread that you started with this specific question, but for everybody else who doesn't like to search (and because I think it is a cool unit and I'd like to see somebody try it out), here it is again:
Surplus Center - 9.7 CU IN STEERING VALVE (TORQUE GENERATOR)

Perfect! Looks like exactly what unforgiven is looking for, eh?

I guess because I don't know too much about hydraulic systems.

To idiot-proof it from myself I'm hoping to design a 100% bolt-on/bolt-off setup. I want to leave the manual setup as close to stock as possible.

I don't mind tack welding some mounts on the tie rod. I've also seen clamp on mounts. These are only used with single-ended rams fixed to the frame on one end?

I also didn't want to have to adjust the camber after swapping out tie rods. I have zero experience with steering alignments. I would assume that replacing the tie rod with a three piece ram would require some tweaking to bring the alignment back into specs.

So you're saying that in the case of hydraulic failure the manual steering would see the double-ended ram as a solid tie rod?

No reason to fear a double-ended ram. No less reliable than your stock tierod and if you lose hydraulic pressure, you still have 100% mechanical connection between both wheels.

You're going to need to do more than tack-weld whatever type of ram you end up mounting, but I know you already know that? In my experience, 'bolt-on' stuff tends to be overly complicated, overly expensive, and less than ideal (compared to a well-built custom-fabricated solution). Nothing against anything that happens to bolt-on, but wouldn't go out of my way to avoid welding when it comes to a project like this.

The toe-in, that's what you would need to re-adjust. Not the camber, or anything else. Adjusting the toe-in is VERY simple. All it takes is a tape measure.

 

[jesusgatos]

i don't know how you think you could come up with a h

Forgive me, but how does this work? does it amplify torque on the output shaft? If so, this may be the coolest and cheapest way to power steering.

Dirt

Unless I'm mistaken, hydraulically. No mechanical advantage.

 

[ALFA2]

There is absolutely no reason why you could not if you wanted to, make a piggy-back, bolt on hydro assist type steering for your Deuce. I saw several old, medium duty Ford F600-F800 type trucks, updated by some third party vendor with a single and one with a double ended ram. All such upgrades were attached with strange bolt on /u- bolt type brackets to the axle, and to steering arm/s.
A more stock looking setup, even it was also a bolt on, was used in a mid 70'-mid 80' GMC Brigadier trucks, the type that were cement mixers and car transports. Those used a hydro steering box, with a set of two rams, one for each side to assist the steering, with the extra weight on the front axle. All of this was bolted onto the frame and to the axle, in place of the normal for that type of truck steering system. If you wanted to double up on your set up, You could just find one of those old systems in a bone yard and adapt it to your truck, or just take the idea and make brackets as you need. You certainly can drive the steering valve of of the stock Deuce steering column, you would have to find a way to attach and connect the steering valve to the steering shaft inside the otherwise solid steering column. everything else is an easy clamp on type a thing, once you find/select the right cylinder and steering valve combo for your steering pump that you will be using. Just use grade 8 or better bolts/nuts in your clamping brackets, it should be OK, since you are not interrupting the old manual set up in any way, just adding on top of it. I have been thinking on doing something like that and have looked at a large number of different setups for this purpose, all with GVW of 2X+ of the Deuce, and tires bigger and heavier than stock Deuce, to get a just right combination. Used prices in AZ bone yards for the entire set of parts minus the steering pump and reservoir/ filter housing is $150-250.00 depending on the size combination of parts, and if it needs to be resealed or not. My only concern for doing it this way, is the way to attach the steering valve to the existing system??? on the column or in the drag link, both Ford and GMC, had it in the drag-link that I saw, and only one old IH had some type of an adapter mounted the steering valve to the top of the steering column. It was old rusty and did not have any numbers or tags on it, so it got away from me...
It is your truck, you will be driving it, it is certainly your choice as to what modifications you make to your truck, to make you feel safe and/or comfortable with it, no mater what other people do with their trucks, do what you like with yours.
Hope it helps some.
ALFA2

 

[Unforgiven]

You're going to need to do more than tack-weld whatever type of ram you end up mounting, but I know you already know that?

Yes, I know that. I used the word "tack" because I didn't want to start a flaming war over welding on steering components. I agree in some cases it's just silly to NOT weld something.

The toe-in, that's what you would need to re-adjust. Not the camber, or anything else. Adjusting the toe-in is VERY simple. All it takes is a tape measure.

See, I told you that steering is not my specialty. I understand now. Just make the threads on the tie rod ends the same depth with a centered ram then cinch down the nut.

 

[Unforgiven]

A more stock looking setup, even it was also a bolt on, was used in a mid 70'-mid 80' GMC Brigadier trucks, the type that were cement mixers and car transports. Those used a hydro steering box, with a set of two rams, one for each side to assist the steering, with the extra weight on the front axle.
ALFA2

Nice, informative post.

I noticed PSC had a double-ram setup on their website.

http://www.pscmotorsports.com/tech/install/dual-cylinder-bracket-kit.pdf

I don't know if it would clear the Deuce leaf springs, but at least it's food for thought. A custom-made steering arm that keeps the stock drag link & tie rod, added to the above double ram hydro, would be just about perfect.

 

[jesusgatos]

No, that won't clear the leafsprings or the frame. Would have to mount them down lower, underneath the leafsprings, inline with the axletubes. I've been thinking about using two rams in mah deuce instead of one double-ended ram, but for redundancy in a fully hydraulic system (not a concern given what you're talking about). What ALFA2 is suggesting would make for a pretty simple install. Just use one single-ended ram, mounted on the passnger's-side, mimicking the geometry of the drag-link on the driver's-side. You would just need another driver's-side steering arm for the knuckle, and to make a bracket that would bolt to the frame and mount the ram in the appropriate position. Of course it would be equally simple to just mount a single-ended ram anywhere else, and wouldn't require any new parts.

 

[tm america]

i have just one fear of using the torque multiplier...what is the max load the stock steering box can handle before twisting the sector shaft?I am pretty sure it would be ok but it would be something to keep an eye on.If you were gonna piggy back something off the steering column to run a char lyn valve.. you would really have to be dead on with the ratio or it would be trying to take the steering wheel from you or not doing much at all..

 

[jesusgatos]

Doen't matter. The hydro assist would be taking the load OFF the steering column, steering box, and drag-link (assuming the ram is mounted to the tierod).

 

[Unforgiven]

Doen't matter. The hydro assist would be taking the load OFF the steering column, steering box, and drag-link (assuming the ram is mounted to the tierod).

He's talking about that torque multiplier tube thingy. It multiplies the torque on the existing manual steering box. Like if you had Hulk arms.

 

[jesusgatos]

Don't believe that's actually how it works. Looks like a 1:1 input/output to me, and the 'multiplication' comes from the hydraulic assist. Am I mistaken?

 

[JasonS]

so, let me get this straight: if a brake hose blows on your deuce, then the family of the deceased will (successfully) sue AM General? and you, as the owner, are not responsible?



sorry, but that's not how things work.

You are completely missing the point. These are not even valid comparisons. If, because of an unsafe design, a GM vehicle kills someone, yes GM is liable. Think of the Pinto or recent sticking gas pedals. If YOU as the owner make an unsafe modification, you may not be covered by your vehicle insurance policy and personally liable. You don't think that the insurance company will come after you?

Don't think for a second that failures never happen. The dual brake ckt was such an improvement in reliability that it was mandated. And now, you use that antiquated standard as your justification for "good enough"? Have fun arguing that in court.

 

[mudguppy]

... Could this simply clamp onto the stock tie rod? ....

no, you cannot do this. the solid tie rod and steering cylinder with links will have differing lengths thoughout the steering cycle. this is because the centerline of the steering cylinder stays fixed (as compared to the axle centerline) and relative to the steering knuckle ends.

so if the steering cylinder is installed at centerline of the steering knuckle ends, then the cylinder and tie rods are aligned when straight. however, when you turn, the steering knuckle ends approach the axle centerline but the cylinder does not. the tie rods are used to account for this; when viewed from above, the cylinder, tie rods, and steering knuckle ends are no longer aligned in a straight line. this means that the distance between the two steering knuckle ends has a certain amount of variability.

so if you piggy back to the fixed-length tie rod, then something will bind and fail.

 

[mudguppy]

You are completely missing the point. These are not even valid comparisons. ...

no, i'm not. i never said that i wouldn't be on the hook if the modified steering system failed and caused an incident.

however, my point was that failure of the steering system was just as likely as failure of the brake system.

then you stated that the manufacturer would be liable for the brake system failure since it is OE.

you're missing the point: tmamerica is talking about failure of a hydraulic hose causing an incident, not an 'unsafe design' leading to an incident. if you're brake hose fails because it's old, you're liable. if your hydrualic hose fails because it's old, you're liable. there's no way in heel that you're not liable when the brake system in your 40+ year old vehicle fails. have fun with that in court.

failure of a hydraulic hose is just as likely as failure of a brake hose. and if it's your truck, you're on the hook for either. anyone disagree with that?

 

[mudguppy]

to the original topic, i believe adding hydraulic assist system that bolts onto the steering column is going to be extremely difficult to get dialed in correctly.

the trouble is matching the input to the valving from the column to give just the right amount of assist. if the input into the steering valve is insufficient, then the assist system will lag behind the stock steering system. then you won't be able to turn at all since the stock system will try to turn faster than the hydro system; you'll be fighting it sitting still.

increase the sensitivity of the input slightly more - you can get it close, but if it's still a little lacking, you won't get any assist.

increase the sensitivity too much, and the hydro system will spin out of control: column input will increase the output of the assist system to the point that the assist system pushes the steering system far enough that input is now fed back into the steering valve through the steering box and column. this will be an accelerated feedback loop that will quickly whip the wheel out of your hand and go to full lock uncontrollably.

i think this is an exercise in futility and potentially dangerous. i think the time is much better spent swapping in a power steering box like has been proven successful and safe many times already.

 

[tm america]

the point i was trying to make is not whether a brake failure is just as likely as a hydro line giving out..it is simply the major difference of what happens when you have complete steering failure..the sudden change of dirrection at highway speed would most likely flip the truck. Or on a two lane road would cause a head on colision.. Either way it would be uncontrolable and you would not have options of how to get out of the situation.. with brake failures you can still steer to miss the car in front of you or downshift and use the e brake...but you still have alot greater chance of not ending up in a bad spot..Simply put there are other safer ways to get power steering on a deuce for street use ...Why not go that route?instead of trying to argue that full hydro steering is safe and trying to dismiss the possible outcomes why not work on trying to make power steering safe and fun for everyone.

 

[tm america]

Don't believe that's actually how it works. Looks like a 1:1 input/output to me, and the 'multiplication' comes from the hydraulic assist. Am I mistaken?

it's a hydrualic torque multiplier,not a char lyn valve....It is a hydrualic motor that adds torque to the input side of the steering box that could possibly over load the steering box.. but i dont think it would judging from the torque numbers they rate it at ..It does not use a cylinder on the axle.

 

[Unforgiven]

no, you cannot do this. the solid tie rod and steering cylinder with links will have differing lengths thoughout the steering cycle. this is because the centerline of the steering cylinder stays fixed (as compared to the axle centerline) and relative to the steering knuckle ends.

so if the steering cylinder is installed at centerline of the steering knuckle ends, then the cylinder and tie rods are aligned when straight. however, when you turn, the steering knuckle ends approach the axle centerline but the cylinder does not. the tie rods are used to account for this; when viewed from above, the cylinder, tie rods, and steering knuckle ends are no longer aligned in a straight line. this means that the distance between the two steering knuckle ends has a certain amount of variability.

so if you piggy back to the fixed-length tie rod, then something will bind and fail.

Man you are smart. That exactly explains why the PSC system replaces the steering arms & doesn't bolt to the tie rod.

Thanks.

 

[Unforgiven]

the trouble is matching the input to the valving from the column to give just the right amount of assist. if the input into the steering valve is insufficient, then the assist system will lag behind the stock steering system. then you won't be able to turn at all since the stock system will try to turn faster than the hydro system; you'll be fighting it sitting still.

increase the sensitivity of the input slightly more - you can get it close, but if it's still a little lacking, you won't get any assist.

increase the sensitivity too much, and the hydro system will spin out of control: column input will increase the output of the assist system to the point that the assist system pushes the steering system far enough that input is now fed back into the steering valve through the steering box and column. this will be an accelerated feedback loop that will quickly whip the wheel out of your hand and go to full lock uncontrollably.

That's why I think a rag joint in the manual steering column is needed. That way the full-hydro is doing the driving. The rag joint keeps the manual steering from binding. But, if the full-hydro ever fails then the manual system takes over. Sure, there would be some play from the rag joint. But it would be 100% mechanical steering and very much drivable.

That drag-link steering switch is pretty neat. I wonder how hard it is to swap that in & what specific model to use.

 

[mudguppy]

... That exactly explains why the PSC system replaces the steering arms & doesn't bolt to the tie rod. ...

or you could use a single-ended cylinder and bolt that to the tie rod. trouble with that is you have differing turning speeds and pressures due to the different volumes on each side of the cylinder. one way to counter this is to use two single-ended cylinders, opposed, but plumbed in parrallel so that there is a big and small side on each circuit. (monster trucks and heavy equipment do this) they could still be bolted to the tie rod to maintain factory geometry and mechanical connection.

but, two cylinders will take more total volume unless you use smaller diameter cylinders with the same stroke.

... That drag-link steering switch is pretty neat. I wonder how hard it is to swap that in & what specific model to use.

you mean the one tm america showed? i agree - that's probably the closest 'bolt-in' options i've seen proposed for power steering.