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Commercial DL ?

MyothersanM1

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Just get one (CDL). One less thing to worry about in this existence. Get the training, gain the knowledge and secure the credentials to back your play. A vehicle, especially a big, old, heavy one, regardless of how it it registered (antique, classic, commercial, etc.) and what state you reside in, still should be operated safely.

Almost forgot...:deadhorse:
 
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davidkroberts

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I'm not going to deny your credentials but I'm pretty sure this is not correct. I know for a fact that you do not have to run apportioned tags. A matter of fact they will pull your apportioned tags if you do not report out of state miles in any given year. If you primarily travel in-state only they recommend you run commercial or farm weighted state tags. I have a commercially operated KW running 80,000lb TN tags. My other trucks do have apportioned tags but I don't run the KW out of state very often. When I do I buy the permits.

Also, in TN you are not required to carry a CDL if you are a farmer hauling farm equipment and products (you have to stay withing 150 miles from home though).

I agree you dont need them I was refering to how the criteria reads. I dont and am not planning on having apportioned tags on anything i own. But I was reading the requirements for vehicle licensing and they seem to contradict each other in a few places. That may be on purpose to give a judge or law-enforcement officer for some wiggle room trying to make something strange (like military vehicles) fit in a catagory. I dont think it is such a bad thing. The more wiggle room the better. Ive never run across a law enforcement officer that was anything other than nice and curious. Nobody has ever questioned the antique tagged three axle vehicle. I hope they are the same with my antique tagged 3 axle m-818.

Is there a difference in farm tags and agriculture tags in TENN. I had a buddy who had a similar problem and the lady at the DMV sudgested he get one or the other i cant remember.
 

Unforgiven

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Is this a serious question?

I mean really?

That's like buying a 747 and asking someone if it's a good idea to get a pilot's license.

If you're even thinking of getting a 5 ton then you should get your CDL first. As much as some people b**** it's really not that big of a deal. You take a physical every two years which is nothing more than an eye test, a urine test for sugar (diabetes) and a blood pressure reading (heart trouble). How hard is that? And if you fail any of them then at least you know that you have medical problems to address.

Go to CDL school and be done with it. It's not hard. Really.
 

DUG

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Luckily the Post 9/11 GI Bill changes 01 August to allow the use of trade schools for licenses, certifications, etc. My last day on active duty is 31 July so I am researching truck driving schools right now. I plan to get every license I can so I can drive whatever I want. Instead of studying on my own and trying to pass the test in the deuce, I'll take the full 5-6 week class and use their truck.

After that I might take some welding classes. :)
 

rmgill

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Really? as the law states Yes. Air over hydro bakes and a GVW of over 26K.... Becuase of it not having Full Air brakes you most of the time will get away with not having one.. but you get one good cop and your busted.

Based upon what statute? The fact is that it is not as cut and dried as everyone says.

Starting off, I'm not a lawyer, I'm just a lay person who has spent a substantial amount of time researching this issue with both my own state controlling authorities AND with the federal government on this issue.

First off, there are reasons you do NOT want a CDL. 1. it implies that you are in part acknowledging that you are commercial in some way shape or fashion which gets them in the door on regulatory compliance issues (hours, log books, DOT number, IFTA Sticker, IRP Sticker, etc).

The MINIMUM Controlling authority on this issue is the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration. They say, via § 383.1 and §390.3 that the functional use of the vehicle has to be commercial in nature. They define that as you are engaged in business for profit (but not necessarily AT a profit) and then you're in commerce. If you're going to events where you win money as a prize that you report as NORMAL income (and not income as part of a business) then it's STILL not commercial. (§390.3(f)(3)). Further the rules of §383 apply to drivers who are in COMMERCE. Again, that's for gainful use of the truck. Just because you're driving and buying fuel to use the vehicle doesn't mean you're in commerce any more than is a RV driver in a 30,000 lb Motor Coach.

If your truck is a hobby vehicle and you're using it for recreational purposes it's not a CMV and the rules don't apply to you. I'd still argue that it's a good idea to run through the weigh stations, carry a copy of the rules AND a copy of the applicability guidance from the FMCSA. I had a LONG and extensive conversation with the Director of State legal Compliance AND with the State Training Directors for my district, both were VERY clear that 390.3(f)(3) meant that Hobby MVs are NOT Commercial Vehicles. The regulatory guidance in question 21 is VERY clear this is what Mr Harris' answer to me in my letter was predicated on by example. The clear caveat being that if you are transporting a personal property that is PART of a business (horses to a horse show and you have a horse farm, you're no longer exempt as a farmer if outside the mile radius limitation). Thus if you have a business buying and selling MVs and MV parts, you WOULD possibly be outside of this exemption.

Here's the question as copied from the FMCSA website.
Question 21: Does the exemption in §390.3(f)(3) for the ‘‘occasional transportation of personal property by individuals not for compensation nor in the furtherance of a commercial enterprise’’ apply to persons who occasionally use CMVs to transport cars, boats, horses, etc., to races, tournaments, shows or similar events, even if prize money is offered at these events?

Guidance: The exemption would apply to this kind of transportation, provided: (1) The underlying activities are not undertaken for profit, i.e., (a) prize money is declared as ordinary income for tax purposes, and (b) the cost of the underlying activities is not deducted as a business expense for tax purposes; and, where relevant; (2) corporate sponsorship is not involved. Drivers must confer with their State of licensure to determine the licensing provisions to which they are subject.
In conversations with the state compliance director he made it clear that a lot of the exemptions are applied incorrectly. This was both with RVs and with buses used by police departments. An example he gave was that a bus used by a police department , say used to move cadets was an inappropriate example of an emergency vehicle. A light bar didn't make it an emergency vehicle, it's USE as an emergency vehicle was what made it such. Thus, the bus, used to move cadets around to/from the academy required a driver with a CDL (then a Class B, a P endorsement and potentially an Airbrake endorsement). Similarly, a recreational vehicle used for a business (say as a mobile sales point) would in fact be a Commercial Vehicle. A good example was a motor coach used to move a band around with a hired driver, that's a business both for the driver AND the operator's of the vehicle. Conversely, a semi-tractor used to move your own goods/household proerty, even if for winning a prize was NOT commercial.

Now, as to state level laws. The states have, over the years adopted the FMCSA regulations badly and the FMCSA has slowly been getting them into compliance. Some states had some problems that made the applicability rules badly formed or were confusing I even attempted to resolve some of this with a bill in my own state. The FMCSA also had a bill that was going to change the same state laws and this got precedence in the General Assembly...SO the same desired effect occurred, thus I was happy.

In some cases, when you talk to your state officials, they'll tell you you cannot, even though the statute is in fact in your favor. I was told initially that I could get a Class A non-commercial license. I started the process, then I was told I could not, months later after there was a change in directors. When I researched the statute in detail, and brought it up with the State AG's office, I got a letter clarifying the problem and I got my license.

Suffice to say, as the states have trued up their laws regarding trucks by wholesale adoption of the FMCSA regulations vs trying to copy and make adjustments and re-write, the gaps for the non-commercial users like ourselves have become more clearly defined with the Federal Guidance making it VERY clear that we are in fact NOT covered by such commercial regulations.

Check your state, see where the laws have been changed and where they are. It takes some time and some hard looking,perhaps asking some questions. Don't accept the first answer. Sometimes it' a matter of asking the correct question the correct way. I had one FMCSA type give me a different answer than I had expected, I directed him to 390.3(f)(3) and he changed his tune and apologized for giving me the wrong answer covering the other area I was inquiring about.

Mind you, some states may be FAR more invasive and draconian than others. California is one I think. However, most states have a NON-commercial class license rated for Class A and B trucks (now Class E and F if the true ups in DOT law are consistent).
 
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rmgill

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Is this a serious question?

I mean really?

That's like buying a 747 and asking someone if it's a good idea to get a pilot's license.
No, it's not.

It's like buying a milsurp 707 and asking if you need a Commercial Pilots license to haul passengers OR if you JUST need a Multi-engine Large Jet license. Cause they're NOT the same thing. Are you compensated for flying? Or are you flying for your own purposes?

Commercial.

com·mer·cial (k-mûrshl)
adj.
1.
a. Of or relating to commerce: a commercial loan; a commercial attaché.
b. Engaged in commerce: a commercial trucker.
c. Involved in work that is intended for the mass market: a commercial artist.
2. Of, relating to, or being goods, often unrefined, produced and distributed in large quantities for use by industry.
3. Having profit as a chief aim: a commercial book, not a scholarly tome.
4. Sponsored by an advertiser or supported by advertising: commercial television.

Or from §383.5 Definitions

Commerce means (a) any trade, traffic or transportation within the jurisdiction of the United States between a place in a State and a place outside of such State, including a place outside of the United States and (b) trade, traffic, and transportation in the United States which affects any trade, traffic, and transportation described in paragraph (a) of this definition.

Just driving around the city/state/country is NOT commerce. Driving my truck to Aberdeen for a MV event is NOT commerce.

If you're even thinking of getting a 5 ton then you should get your CDL first. As much as some people b**** it's really not that big of a deal. You take a physical every two years which is nothing more than an eye test, a urine test for sugar (diabetes) and a blood pressure reading (heart trouble). How hard is that? And if you fail any of them then at least you know that you have medical problems to address.

Go to CDL school and be done with it. It's not hard. Really.
Do you send Uncle Sam donations over and above your normal tax liability? That's awful nice of you. ;-)
 

rmgill

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Just to add,

I have a Class AM non-commercial license. I have never been bothered by DOT folks AND the one time I did interact with them, they were interested in the load from a "hey, that's NEAT!" perspective. I started to get out paperwork and they waved it all away.
 

rmgill

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Decatur, Ga
One additional Data point.

Ga defines RV's contradictorily to the FMCSA's still.

They state that they can be used with a Class C license. Even with Air brakes (not explicitly) and at 20 tons with a 15 ton trailer, a FULL sized RV would be a Class C license vehicle. Use it for commerce, while Ga Law still says it's a Class C type vehicle, however, find a federal DOT inspector OR another state inspector who knows better and you'll probably have a problem and a bunch of fines.

There is no Air brake Endorsement on the State Non-Commercial License. However there is information on the Class A/B noncommercial test on Air Brakes....Go figure. I needed a Class B NonCommercial License, I got an A by taking the right tests and going the extra mile.

If you're commercial, you need a CDL. If you're not commercial, you MIGHT need a CDL, quite possibly you don't.

Hopefully this clears something up....:jumpin:
 

Ripcord01

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Is this a serious question?

I mean really?

That's like buying a 747 and asking someone if it's a good idea to get a pilot's license.

If you're even thinking of getting a 5 ton then you should get your CDL first. As much as some people b**** it's really not that big of a deal. You take a physical every two years which is nothing more than an eye test, a urine test for sugar (diabetes) and a blood pressure reading (heart trouble). How hard is that? And if you fail any of them then at least you know that you have medical problems to address.

Go to CDL school and be done with it. It's not hard. Really.
You got schooled there buddy.lmao
 

CGarbee

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If you go and do a search (I know, I dislike doing it myself), you'll find some posts that I have made concering the NC rules. You can also figure it out by going to the NCDMV website... but that only helps if you are a resident of North Carolina.

In short, a North Carolina driver can get either a Commercial or NON-Commercial license. For a five ton, you'd need a Class A or a Class B, depending on the size of the trailer that you may or may not have.

Ryan has a nice series of posts... I think I'll add them to my reference file.
 

Tow4

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I'm going through the CDL course at Mid Fl Tech (a county school in Orlando, Fl.) right now. In fact, I got my CDL class A license last week.

When I started the class, I asked the instructors what their opinion was on needing a CDL to drive a M818 with a permanent antique tag. I explained the tag is a non-weighted tag and the truck is not to be used for pulling a trailer.

The first thing they asked was if it still had the 5th wheel; I said yes. The next question was for clairification on the permanent antique tag. I explained that as I understood it, the truck can't be used to pull a semi-trailer with the non-weight registered tag.

After talking it over, the consensus was you can probably get away without the CDL. But.... If you have a major accident and somebody is badly injured or killed, you will be operating a truck tractor with a GVWR of over 26K lbs without the proper license. In short, you are toast.

I came to this conclusion myself a while back and decided it was not worth the couple of thousand $ the class costs to risk everything I have if the worst happens.

I'm not going to argue this issue one way or the other. I'm just sharing information. I don't care what anybody else does; this is what I'm doing.

Cheers,

Ray
 

paulfarber

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Your FL Tech instructor is not up to speed. He knows whats in his little instructors book. Has be looked up that laws in the other 49 States? Or simply scaring you into staying into the course so he gets paid? I can tell you he is dead wrong for PA.

In the MAJORITY of States you need to get a Class 'A' license. That is not a CDL. You can drive the same vehicles (save HAZMAT) as a CDL but without the CDL non-sense because you are not in commerce.

If you have a CDL and get caught for certain infractions, the penalty IS HIGHER becuase of the CDL that you didn't need to begin with.

If you get into an accident with a 5 ton the is little that having a CDL will protect you from that a Class 'A' will not (unless your State specifically requires a CDL).

Specifically, in PA:

CLASS A (minimum age 18): Required to operate any combination of vehicles with a gross weight rating of 26,001 pounds or more, where the vehicle(s) being towed is/are in excess of 10,000 pounds. Example: Recreational Vehicle, when the towing vehicle is rated at 11,000 pounds and the vehicle towed is rated at 15,500 pounds (total combination weight of 26,500 pounds).
 

m16ty

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In Tennessee a class "A" is a CDL. There is no class "A" non-commercial.

In TN there are three different CDLs. Class "A" (combination vehicle over 26K), Class "B" (truck only over 26K), and class "C" (commercial vehicle less than 26K but more than 10K). I've never seen them enforce the class "C" license.
 

rmgill

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After talking it over, the consensus was you can probably get away without the CDL. But.... If you have a major accident and somebody is badly injured or killed, you will be operating a truck tractor with a GVWR of over 26K lbs without the proper license. In short, you are toast.
From the Florida License classes web page.
CDL Exemptions

The following persons are exempt from the requirements to obtain a commercial driver license:

Drivers of authorized emergency vehicles that are equipped with extraordinary audible warning devices that display red or blue lights and are on call to respond to emergencies;or
Military personnel driving military vehicles; or
Farmers transporting farm supplies or farm machinery, or transporting agricultural products to or from the first place of storage or processing or directly to or from market, within 150 miles of their farm; or
Drivers of recreational vehicles used for recreational purposes; or
Drivers who operate straight trucks (single units) that are exclusively transporting their own tangible personal property which is not for sale.
An employee of a publicly owned transit system who is limited to moving vehicles for maintenance or parking purposes exclusively within the restricted-access confines of a transit system's property.
I wonder what firemen or farmers in Florida drive on when operating a Tractor Trailer. Do firemen who have an accident in a hook and ladder get pegged for driving outside of their license class? What does an RV driver use when towing a 15,000 lb RV trailer?
 

MyothersanM1

19K M1 Armor Crewman
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After talking it over, the consensus was you can probably get away without the CDL. But.... If you have a major accident and somebody is badly injured or killed, you will be operating a truck tractor with a GVWR of over 26K lbs without the proper license. In short, you are toast.
I agree with the above statement. Face it, we live in a litigious society chock full of lawyers ready to sue everybody and take everything you have. C-Y-A is the order of the day.

HOWEVER, the problem with these CDL threads is not with the individual SS members, but it is the laws and interpretation thereof in all the 50 states. It appears no two states are on the same sheet of music when it comes to this topic.

Ultimately, in my opinion, we are operating large vehicles in an inherently unsafe environment. I, personally, decided to protect myself legally by obtaining the proper credentials. Take care for yourself and do what you believe is right as it pertains to your belief of the laws that govern you directly.
 
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Ripcord01

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I agree with the above statement. Face it, we live in a litigious society chock full of lawyers ready to sue everybody and take everything you have. C-Y-A is the order of the day.

HOWEVER, the problem with these CDL threads is not with the individual SS members, but it is the laws and interpretation thereof in all the 50 states. It appears no two states are on the same sheet of music when it comes to this topic.

Ultimately, in my opinion, we are operating large vehicles in an inherently unsafe environment. I, personally, decided to protect myself legally by obtaining the proper credentials. Take care for yourself and do what you believe is right as it pertains to your belief of the laws that govern you directly.
I never really considered that point of the conversation. I am going to get the work book for MD and study for the test. Like another poster stated the pita part is the physicals and the cost, but I woould rather be safe than sorry.:beer:
 
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