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Lockers??

jesusgatos

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Not sure what you mean. If the diff is welded (or you're running a spool), but you have locking hubs on that axle, when they're unlocked you wouldn't be sending any power to the wheels/tires connected to that axle. So you wouldn't notice anything.
 

jimk

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Stress goes up when you add cargo and pavement.

You don't need, or want, a locked differential on pavement (ex-Stalwart). Selectable is by far the best way to go on paved roads.
 

oldMan99

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I have been considering welding the front tandem and running the lockout kit. Then, when I can afford it, putting regular lockers front and rear tandem. I'm waiting to hear a good word on how a welded front tandem would act with the lockout kit unlocked.
I have a mud truck with a spooled rear axle as well, so I'm aware of the street manners and consequences on a four wheeled vehicle. I have little idea how a truck this large would act with a spool and then adding in a lockout kit on top of it even loses me further.
Quite possibly someone that has actually done it will pipe in and correct/contradict me here but....

If you have locking hubs on the front and unlock them, I don't see where it makes any difference if there is an open diff, Detroit locker or spool/welded since there will be zero power reaching the wheels - Not until you lock the hubs in of course. In limited traction I think you would be fine. When you get to areas with better or even "Good" traction you might have some handling issues but, your most likely not going to be hauling a$$ but instead will likely be moving relatively slowly and the handling issues SHOULD be minimal at that point.

EDITED TO ADD: I missed Jesus's post above. I agree completely with what he said.

As for putting lockers in both rear tandems, ready my post above about the possible issues of doing so without a means of "deactivating" on of the axles. I would suggest that it might be a very good idea to install locking hubs on one of the rears (As noted above).

Anybody have better info to offer? Please feel free to correct/contradict me if you have actually done this before on a Deuce.
 
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Unforgiven

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I think he's asking if having a powered axle shaft inside the housing will affect the lockout hub in "free" position.

The answer is no, it will not affect it. The shaft will spin but it is 100% disengaged from the hub.

Think of it this way:

Powering the axle to a free hub is the same axle-to-hub relationship as if you were going in reverse & the axle shaft were not turning.

Decades in the past there used to be "automatic" hubs that would engage when they sensed rotational power in the axle shaft. Manual lockouts do not do this.

What's happening inside the axle housing and what's happening at the hub are not connected.
 

Jakob

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I think he's asking if having a powered axle shaft inside the housing will affect the lockout hub in "free" position.

The answer is no, it will not affect it. The shaft will spin but it is 100% disengaged from the hub.

Think of it this way:

Powering the axle to a free hub is the same axle-to-hub relationship as if you were going in reverse & the axle shaft were not turning.

Decades in the past there used to be "automatic" hubs that would engage when they sensed rotational power in the axle shaft. Manual lockouts do not do this.

What's happening inside the axle housing and what's happening at the hub are not connected.
I think you're grasping what I'm getting at.
If the front tandem is welded/spooled and has the OEM lockout kit, only one wheel has a lockout. The other wheel is still tied to the spool whether or not the other wheel is locked. Will the truck drive fine with the front tandem welded and the OEM lockout kit on one hub.
 

mudguppy

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there will still be some tire scrub on the powered wheel. i see no value in welding the intermediate differential and adding one lockout hub.

you can buy an OEM locker for the price of a hub and axle shaft.
 

David_Clements_4x4

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after taking a long while to read this i couldnt help but notice that its opinions. Not to bash anyone but I like facts, Im sure lots of other people do to.

First has anyone on here broken any of there shafts,carriers,spider gears,spool... from binding on tight turns on pavement or is everyone asuming that it is creating more wear and tear than it realy is. And if so how long was it till they scattered or under what payload.

I liked the info about how the Detroit locker works but still am a little sceptical on if it realy lets the outside tire spin faster while keeping full power to inside slower tire. I thought at one time on a 4x4 site i saw a link for some company's limited slip/locker working video but have no idea where i saw it at, so what im getting at is does anyone have a link to such video or posibly does anyone have the setup(DL and some way of applying power and spinning one tire faster freely) and capable of video-ing it for us.

Right now im in the process of puting in an airshift case since i no longer have power in forward or reverse out of my sprag case and just happend to have one in a spare truck.

What I would realy love to see like any man would be destruction:drool:, so if someon out there had plenty of money and dosnt feel like sharing with the rest of us but likes to tear things up no-matter the cost. I would want to see some how a way to test the limits of torque or repeated stress on the mechanical lockers.

I can say from first hand expierence that even in a light mud toy both locker and spool make it harder to turn, spool excessivly, when you have manual stearing and still noticible with hydraulic steering and spool.
 

spicergear

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after taking a long while to read this i couldnt help but notice that its opinions. Not to bash anyone but I like facts, Im sure lots of other people do to. Hopefully I can add a couple facts for you.

First has anyone on here broken any of there shafts,carriers,spider gears,spool... from binding on tight turns on pavement or is everyone asuming that it is creating more wear and tear than it realy is. And if so how long was it till they scattered or under what payload. People are not breaking parts and it isn't an assumption that more wear and tear is created. You're physically dragging/scrubbing tires/an axles to turn. Pull the bed off and watch the suspension react when you turn and you'll never question the forces at work on the rear tandems again. A non-overload condition won't break things for a long, long time. <--Sorry, last sentence is opinion based on knowledge.

I liked the info about how the Detroit locker works but still am a little sceptical on if it realy lets the outside tire spin faster while keeping full power to inside slower tire. I thought at one time on a 4x4 site i saw a link for some company's limited slip/locker working video but have no idea where i saw it at, so what im getting at is does anyone have a link to such video or posibly does anyone have the setup(DL and some way of applying power and spinning one tire faster freely) and capable of video-ing it for us. Nobody needs to do that. You need to understand exactly how the Detroits and OEM lockers work. When you have input FROM the driveshaft into the rear (like driving under power forward or reverse) the locker is 100% locked and you will get ZERO slippage or speed differential between the tires. If the right tire make ten turns, the left one will too. Now, when you have input FROM THE AXLESHAFT into the rear (like decelerating and engine braking) the locker is 100% OPEN. That's how they work plain and simple. I've installed them, driven them, beaten them, and like them. Yes, a selectable would be better and offer less tire wear, but people outside the big high horsepower mud guys or an occassional rock buggy are breaking these.

Right now im in the process of puting in an airshift case since i no longer have power in forward or reverse out of my sprag case and just happend to have one in a spare truck. Great, they're nice. Now you'll be able to put a locker and lockouts on your front axle. :grin:

What I would realy love to see like any man would be destruction:drool:, so if someon out there had plenty of money and dosnt feel like sharing with the rest of us but likes to tear things up no-matter the cost. I would want to see some how a way to test the limits of torque or repeated stress on the mechanical lockers. It's been done. They've been real world tested for years. If someone manages to actually hurt a Detroit with high horsepower or giant tires (BIG mud truck stuff) then the next step up is higher grade or larger axleshafts. THEN an Ouverson billet locker. More lockers get wiped out from being connected to stock axleshafts. What that means is that when/if a stock axleshaft has enough load on it that it finally pops...that instant shock back though the locker can hurt them.

I can say from first hand expierence that even in a light mud toy both locker and spool make it harder to turn, spool excessivly, when you have manual stearing and still noticible with hydraulic steering and spool.
I don't understand some of your questions given the fact you have experience with lockers and spools. ??
 

David_Clements_4x4

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I don't understand some of your questions given the fact you have experience with lockers and spools. ??
hmm some explaining is in order, I guess I didnt read over my post enough after changing throughout wrighting it.

My expierence is with driving them off road, one truck with locker and hydraulic stearing, couple trucks with spools/welded, and even a few more that were manual steering with spool/welded witch later got the upgrade to hydraulic. Now mechanical expirence is to spools there easy to understand, ive helped put them in(2 axles) my self and drove them (and 5 or 6 others) they were the cheapest route and so basic they are nearly idiot proof in design. now i should have said my expierence with lockers is limited to 2 trucks one in my Dads front 2.5 ton axle of his mud truck and one in his weekend driver 1/2 ton in the rear. I didnt get to see how the locker in the 2.5 ton was made so i didnt realy understand how they work, I did put the one in the rear of the weekend driver which he handed me the box and said he wanted it in that day so i didnt have time to look it over to much but i still dont understand how there supposed to be unlocked while coasting and how they lock up when under a load.

The one i put in just replaced spider gears so same principle as the 2.5 tons. 3 peices with teeth on the sides and i think 4 small springs about 1/4 OD(i realize that other locker setups have diffrent spring design) Its been quite a while since i put it in and if i rember right the springs tried to push the peices apart, so if the springs were pushing the peices apart what is supposed to pull them togeather to lock it under power.

I seem to have mis-understood the way it was worded
This is the cool thing about a Detroit locker, (This applies ONLY to the DL, the other lockers all work differently) as the outside wheel travels faster it unlocks from the diff and is free to go faster than the inside wheel which remains powered (or not powered if it is a drag axle because it is currently not being powered).
I thought as Oldman said that while being powered the faster spinning tire would unlock (being why i thought everyone said DL was superior over any locker) but seems other people on here and other companys state that it is while coasting that they(detroit and others) unlock.

I think you're grasping what I'm getting at.
If the front tandem is welded/spooled and has the OEM lockout kit, only one wheel has a lockout. The other wheel is still tied to the spool whether or not the other wheel is locked. Will the truck drive fine with the front tandem welded and the OEM lockout kit on one hub.
IMO It will drive and handle just like it would if it were open since there is no way to bind up between tires on the opposite sides of the akle. HOWEVER I think you could possibly have a problem in the future if your the kinda guy who likes to ram and jam, you would be putting all the stress of accelerating on the same axle/tire and in theory twice the torque it would normaly be under. Take an axle, we'll say it has a spool, if ya put X ft/lbs into the axle then half of the torque will go to each axle/tire, now lets say you have a single lock out, all the torque is going to go to the axle/tire that is still attached to the spool, while the side with the lock out is compleatly free to do as it wants. Ok now for people that like numbers (actual ratios could be wrong did a rough search, this is just to show idea) we'll say 1st gear, low side, one lockout, bobed duce. Trans ratio 6/1, t-case assume its 2/1, axle which is 6.72/1 so after some math you come up with 80.64/1, since torque is also multiplied the same way and if you have 300ft/lbs it becomes 24,192 ft/lbs, if two tires are powered then
12,096 ft/lbs per tire, if ya got the lock-out un-locked then all 24,192 is going to one tire which equals a whole lot of stress.

Hmm...will try to post pics of attempting to swap air shift case to let others have an idea of just how hard it could be due to lack of ground clearence. Got the case unbolted and sittin on a pallet (fairly easily 4-5 hours with wrenches, woulda done faster if it was close to shop and power tools, and getting quit dirty in the process) underneath the truck before I realized I didnt have the room to take it out from under the truck. I still have spare tire race and the tire still on it, and it looked to be pretty rusted so I kinda went another route. I should know later this week if ya can put it in without lifting the truck since the truck getting the t-case dosnt have the spare tire rack. I beleive it should but picking up the t-case with a forklift while someon else trys to install it could be harder than i think.

I, like many others, would realy want to install Arb lockers so if I do I will try to get pictures of anything interesting or finished product

Also have found a company that tops OEM in axle strength, OEM 2" shafts, gearharteng.com 2 9/16":drool::drool:(unbreakable comes to mind)
EDIT: Skipped lines on Gear Hart 2 1/8 in "hybrid" axles, 2 9/16 5 ton oversized

Hate to cover so much in one post but it beats double posting and gettin jumped.:mrgreen:
 

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spicergear

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Nice heavy duty jack!

Anyway the link should help on Detroit 'No-Spin' operation. That is perfect world video and low rpm or low load turning. If you're on the pedal and accelerating through a turn, they'll stay locked. Best thing I found when driving Detroits (when possible) was to give a moment of a torque break to the diff to allow it to work...or say in town making a low speed turn- approach it at whatever speed then lift off the gas pedal and coast through. That usually assured the diff would unlock for a smooth turn. Detroits will on occassion make a very audible bang if it was open then locks under a load. They're real tough though and the 'lunch box' locker design in the 2-1/2 ton rear where it only replaces the spider gears is not to be worried about as that section is as big as the whole carrier on most smaller vehicles. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KQ1yMBR7w4Q
 

David_Clements_4x4

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I think I got most of it now. Ok so now I just want to be sure about a few things. Since im switching to the air shift transfer case i should be able to have a regular locker in the stear axle without binding up, right? and would it still make the racheting sound if its not being powered.

I was plannin on having at least 2 lockers in the truck and maby one of them be an ARB which I plan to put in rear before Trucks Gone Wild films a local mud-run in about a month, well If i dont end up buyin another deuce that i found. I plan on sitin aroud and pullin people out:driver:. My idea on how to plumb the ARB is to just run it off the same line as the transfer case since if I spin out and switch in the front axle im probly going to need the extra tires in the rear too, and somewhere down the road plan on a third locker for the middle axle.
 

Flat Black

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If you have the cash and time, I would suggest the following:

Run separate airlines for t-case and any ARB lockers that are installed, daisy chaining things together is bad (one failure point takes out everything)

Additionally, there are at least two types of Detroit Lockers, which behave differently, plus several others from subsidiary companies, so make sure you are talking about the same model locker when getting your info. Which leads me to-

I have had my 85 4runner for about 8 years. It does not get driven much on the road anymore, but in 8 years, I have NEVER heard my front Detroit no-spin bind or pop, not once. That said, a strategy emerges. I never drive in 4wd on pavement, especially not with a spool in the rear and a no-spin in the front. If you feel you would do the same, then you have a few options.

The ideal scenario is to have one ARB locker in each axle = ultimate control and traction, most expensive option.

Next would be to have two ARBs (rear axles) and either Detroit locker in the front. This gives you good traction off road when your front axle is engaged at the t-case and since you wont drive on pavement with the front axle engaged, this locker is never going to bind, cause uneven tire wear, etc., because this ring gear is not being driven by the axle shaft. You have great traction using one or both rear ARBs.

Last option would be to do an ARB in the middle axle and a Detroit in the other two. If you dont drive on pavement a lot or do mostly highway driving a Detroit in the far rear will be fine. You arent going to break anything in high range with a stock motor and would probably only see very slightly increased tire wear, but I would not expect anything huge unless you do a lot of pavement miles. This is the cheapest option that still provides three solid/hard (non lunch box) lockers. They can be added in stages as time and budget allow and when completed, you will have true six wheel drive.
 
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mudguppy

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i concur w/ Flat - i've forgotten to unlock my front hubs a few times and driven around w/ the front axle 'locked' in (OEM locker up front). the only thing that made me realize that the hubs were locked was the vibration from the front driveshaft at highway speeds.

i have noticed no binding, popping, or understeer with the OEM locker up front (transfer disengaged), even low speed full-lock turns.
 

bdhansen

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Back to the welded diff and lock out hubs, its sounds like great idea. If both wheels run lock outs, it will have no effect on the road. But if i remeber, part of the point to run lock outs (on any axle) was to attempt to increase gas milage by isolating the wheels from this shafts and diifs, allowing wheels to free spin while all the Internals sit idle. The lack of rotational mass of all those parts is where the possible savings comes from. Both rear axles on a duece, both diffs are spinning no matter what. With a welded (spooled) both axle shaft would be too. And with the wheels rolling, all those part would be moving at the same speed, lock or unlocked. The only benifit to running unlocked would be for turning purposes. Seams like a waste to spend all the money on customs shafts and lock outs (over twice than a DL) for realy no gain. the point is to isolate a whole diff from spinning while on the road.thats not possible on a duece with the way they diffs are and the intermediate shaft between the two axles. Just put detroits (or any other auto locking diff)in both rears. Less parts to break, less hasle and work. KISS.....keep it simple .......you know the rest.
 

mudguppy

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... But if i remeber, part of the point to run lock outs (on any axle) was to attempt to increase gas milage by isolating the wheels from this shafts and diifs, allowing wheels to free spin while all the Internals sit idle. The lack of rotational mass of all those parts is where the possible savings comes from. Both rear axles on a duece, both diffs are spinning no matter what. ...
for a front axle, yes. for a rear axle, this is true as you pointed out, but there is still a mileage increase by preventing the rears from 'scrubbing' and fighting each other while driving and turning.
 

bdhansen

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for a front axle, yes. for a rear axle, this is true as you pointed out, but there is still a mileage increase by preventing the rears from 'scrubbing' and fighting each other while driving and turning.
I agree. There is SOME benefit. However, there will always be scrub on tandems, powered or not. I just think the marginal benefit is not worth the cost. For a man on a budget, I would start with DLs in both rears and lock outs in the steer (leave the diff open). then if there is a later need for more, put a DL or selectable in the steer axle. I would imaging even with ONLY 5 wheels turning, a deuce will do pretty good in many situations. Mine has surprised me on the places i took it with all diffs open. I can only image with all 4 rear wheels turning what it would do. If i had money, i would do ARBs in all diffs.

like other have said before with DLs in the steer who forgot to unlock their hubs, they barley notice. I think the length, poor turning radius, and lack of power a deuce has, DLs will not be that noticeable in the rear on the streets. I had a DL in a K5 Blazer. it scared the living piss out of me on many occasions, but it was only during full throttle acceleration. a deuce wont be able to do that.

for a man on a budget (unless its a rich mans budget!!), I would (and will on mine) do DLs in both rears.
 
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rolling18

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for all you people running DL/ ARB/ or Lock outs, on the steers W/O power steering, how much does that increase the steering effort/ reduce turning radius???

(in my old 92 dodge i had a powerlock put in the front axle, when hubs were locked in I could hardly turn it EVEN WITH power steering)
 
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spicergear

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A locker and lockouts on the front is a great idea. The spool idea for the front really has only one real drawback; there will be loads on the hubs that will make unlocking them possibly quite a chore. I don't think my Selectros would let me turn the knob and unlock the hub if there was a load on the hub. With a spool you may find that one or the other hub has a decent load on it from a turn you had made or whatever. It make take draving front to back, steering back and fourth (and trying to unlock again) or possibly (worst case) jacking up one front tire to allow the front axle parts to unload.
 

rolling18

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Hydro assist is an amazing thing. I run it on my van. Jim
Yes I imagine it is!!
After researching that mod, I definatly don't have the mechanical ability or the tools to undertakethat project!. Heh.

It will sap my funds enough just to get something more for the front axle,
Wonder the cost for power steering? Hmmm

I guess there is no hope of beiing able to steer 48 in upgraded tires, w/o ps.
 
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