1028 with electrical gremlins (click when you twist the ignition)

[Ridgeback]

First things first - yes, I have done a thorough search on the boards, but there are MULTIPLE opinions on what to do. Yes, I also have the -10 and -20 manuals downloaded, and even printed off the -20 troubleshooting steps for "won't start." That all said, electrical stuff is my $@%#^ Achilles heel... Here's how it went down...

Merle, my new 1028, had been running fine all weekend. We came home from a Halloween party Sat evening with no troubles. Sunday morning, it was in the low 40's. I went to take my son over to a friend's house to go paint balling, and we jumped in Merle. I gave the glow plugs two shots to warm up, then gave the ignition a twist. It spun for a second or two, but didn't catch. I let it rest a second, gave it a little throttle and twisted a second time, and it ****ed near caught. I waited a few seconds, the gave it a third twist, but only got a "clunk" from one of the relays behind the dash, and the water temp light flashed on. Hmmmm. Now that's all that happens - glow plugs go thru their sequence, soon as the GP light winks out, you give it a twist, and there is an audible click from one of the black plastic relays under the dash (one by the cannon plug on the trans tunnel) I'm going to get out the multimeter and dragoon my son into giving me a hand. Before I launch, has anyone else seen this and figured it out? Some of the posts suggested burnt fusible links, bat starter relay, or a fried starter... None of which sound fun. Soooo...any words of wisdoms before I crawl under Merle and surrender the better part of my weekend to my least favorite thing - chasing stray electrons? Thanks,

-Pete (Ridgeback)

 

[Howlin Mad Murdock]

I have to admit that I am not the most knowledgeable when it comes to this stuff but I have a couple ideas. First, you might just have a loose connection at the starter. Second, you might have a stuck solenoid in the starter (just hit it with a hammer or mallet). Or, you might have shot brushes in the starter. I hope you can figure this out quick and that it won't be too bad!

 

[Speddmon]

Batteries fully charged and both good and load tested???? That is a MAJOR cause of not turning over.

 

[Ridgeback]

Yeah - starter is brand new, and all the leads were tight when I rolled under it the other day... They are new, but I will definitely load test the batteries. I'm hoping I can get this taken care of quickly - nobody likes a giant green lump in the driveway!

 

[V8Astro]

Your symptoms are similar to what mine was doing. Key on, GP cycle, everything looks good, twist aaaaaand nothing.....

I recently had a problem with the main wiring harness connector on the firewall (below the wiper motor). The connections were all corroded and it actually caught on fire while cranking (the loom anyway). That 24v energizing wire gets hot in hurry if the connection is bad.

 

[Gunzy]

Check batteries, check all connections are clean and tight. If that all looks and checks good I would pull the starter and have it tested. Just cause it's new doesn't mean it's problem free. I've been a mechanic long enough to know that new parts fail too.

 

[Warthog]

There are three relays under the dash. Starter relay (largest of the three), GEN2 relay and the Voltmeter relay.

It could be a simple as the starter relay has gone bad. You may want to consider the Doghead Starter Relay Upgrade.

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?70846-Poll-Who-has-done-the-Dodhead-Relay-Conversion

Looking back at the Atankersdad for sale ad, you may want to find out what starter he installed. It could be the culprut as some of the "new" East Asia starters don't last very long. (months, days)

 

[engineman2]

I would second the vote for a poorly functioning starter relay, especially if you check connections, batteries and starter and find them to be good. I also suggest the doghead mod as the relay it uses is far far superior to the stock replacement one.

 

[Ridgeback]

Thanks guys - yes, Dudley did put in a new starter (possible culprit) this Summer, but he also told me he did the doghead conversion... will check that for any possible loose connections. Hmmm... the mystery deepens. We shall see when I crawl back under the beast this weekend and start troubleshooting. Stay tuned for updates!

 

[Ridgeback]

Tonight's update:
I checked with Dudley, and he did the doghead update and installed a new starter from urqualitysolutions (off of fleabay). He has put 5 in CUCV's so far and not had one burn out.

This evening, after work, I crawled under the dashboard and traced all the leads I could find - no obvious chafes, rubs, or shorts. I didn't have the time to pull and load test the batteries (tomorrow in the daylight), but will get to it. I had my son give me a hand, and I think we may have isolated the faulty relay (see pic). I crawled all under the dash, but it wasn't any of those. I crawled in the engine bay, and he twisted it again... The source of the clunky click:
I talked to Dudley, and he confirmed it was the only relay he had not replaced. I'll continue the troubleshooting steps...but am encouraged that I am on the trail. Well CUCV gurus - lend me your thoughts / experiences.

 

[doghead]

That is your glowplug relay. Has nothing to do with the starter motor.

Please confirm, your enging does not turn over with the key in the start position, correct?

Or, are you saying it turns over, but does not start?

 

[Ridgeback]

Thanks doghead. No - the engine does not turn over - I turn on the switch, the GEN2 light comes on, the glow plugs cycle (wait light goes out after 7-10 sec), but when I twist the key all the way to fire the starter, I only get a click.

 

[Nuke113]

Just my 2 cents but if you are getting a click from what I would imagine is the doghead relay I would try and verify that it is passing the 24v signal through the relay when closed and then proceed start looking at the starter and see if the signal makes it to the solenoid.

 

[Ridgeback]

Headed out to a kids soccer game, then I'm grabbing a multimeter and poking my head under a CUCV hood. Wish me luck!

 

[Ridgeback]

OK - starting to get frustrated (insert anguished groan)...batteries are fine (both at 12.6v and 25.2 across both). They draw current when the glow plugs cycle (bit of a load test, sans loading them with the currently inop starter system). I have inspected and replaced all the fuses, even cleaned the fuse contacts. I have crawled back under the dash and rechecked all the myriad (dare I say superfluous) wires, switches, diodes, and relays for any sign of chafing/ shorting. Nada....

I started running thru the -20 troubleshooting steps, but electrical is NOT my strong suit....and images of the starter relay, like on page page 4-12 of the -20 are NOT helping me.

In protest, I pulled the whole dash off to replace the heater controls (had a new control group still in box). I found an absolute rats (maybe a mouse) nest back there, and a chafed/ nibbled wire (water in fuel light). I cleaned that up and out it all back together...but the starter problem still persists. Any of you CUCV electrical gurus, please feel free to jump in and walk me thru this. I'm about mad enough to spit.

 

[cpf240]

With all you've done in pulling things apart and putting them back together, have you followed the voltage through the starting circuits?

I'd start with checking the Doghead relay terminals. I forget the colors, but when not turning the starter, one of the big terminals should have 24v on it. One of the small terminals is just a ground, and the other should have 12v on it when the key is in the crank position. You should also feel/hear the DH relay click when the key is in the crank position, and, when the other big terminal should then have 24v on it. From the results of checking these readings, you should have a direction to follow.

No 24v at either large terminal of the DH relay? Check 24v fuse and fusible link(s).
No 12v at the small ( non-ground ) terminal of the DH relay when key is in crank position? Check the ignition switch on the steering column, and associated wiring.
No 24v at other large terminal of the DH relay when key is in crank position and you heard / felt the relay engage and had 24v on the other large terminal? Bad relay.
Relay voltages check out ok? Follow wire from relay to starter, verify 24v at starter solenoid, if have 24v at starter solenoid wire from DH relay when key in crank position, bad starter / starter solenoid.

As a quick test, use a decent gauge wire, or screwdriver, and short together the two larger terminals on the DH relay and see if the starter cranks the engine. This would tell you the starter / starter solenoid are probably fine.

Always remember, a wire can look just fine, no breaks, etc, and still be bad. Visual inspection is a good start, but a meter can show the state of the wiring much better. Also, keep in mind that just looking for voltages is not the whole story. Many things can look good until put under an actual load.

 

[Ridgeback]

Dang it....I'll go back and recheck the doghead relay tomorrow, in the daylight. If I can bridge the relay and get it to fire, I'll be in business...but I am beginning to run out of patience with these danged gremlins. I knew CUCV's had a few idiosyncrasies, but this is just maddening. I hope it is the relay and not the starter...that thing looks like a royal crown b*tch to pull and replace.

 

[MarcusOReallyus]

It's maddening because you are jumping around. Don't just throw one fix after another at it. Don't do X because somebody on a forum said that fixed his similar problem. And then Y because somebody else said that would do it.

Follow the -20, one .... step .... at ..... a .... time. Don't jump around, don't skip steps. You WILL find the problem if you are systematic about it.

Don't let the electrons get you flustered. Don't do things "in protest". You'll waste time and energy and you won't get where you want to go.

 

[Ridgeback]

OK - got the man cub out early this morning (before his sister's soccer game) and we checked the doghead starter relay.


We had 25v on the big red terminal. Check

When he cranked it, there was a resounding 'click' and there were 24.6v reading on the big purple terminal. Check

The multimeter also read 12v on the purple wire with white stripe under load. Check!

I rolled under the truck and had him crank it again while I put the multimeter on the lead to the starter....nothing.

I'm going to try and ground hop the starter off the batteries this afternoon (post soccer)...just in case I messed up that test. At least we know the starter relay is functioning...now it's either a short in the line to the starter, or a fried starter....right? Pile on here, oh ye gurus of the CUCV and all her foibles!

 

[cpf240]

Good work!

If there were a short, then I'd expect blown fuses or melted fusible links. My guess would be a bad starter solenoid.