12 Volt Power - Deuce with 3 or 4 batteries

[Stalwart]

I had one 6TL reverse polarity while in my truck. I couldn't figure out why I got 0 volts in series and 12 volts separately. I was using a digital meter and I never look at the polarity, just the reading. After about a minute it came to me, you'd think I had one connected backwards but that wasn't the case. It started the truck 3 weeks before.

The Hawkers turned over the engine for more than 10 total minutes, without being charged for more than a year and still starts the vehicle with not enough running time to charge em back up. I would keep em charged but the new owner doesn't bother.

The only hard part was done by my wife, she had to do a one arm shoulder press, the other hand for stability, to hand them up to me. Nice having a strong wife

 

[mudguppy]

installing anything that runs off of the 24 volt alt is modding the stock electrical system...

again - you guys need to study the diagram. the equalizer is simply connected to the battery terminals. period. nothing is attached to the alternator, nothing is 'spliced', nothing is interupted. the only thing it does is moderate the voltage between the two batteries completely seperate of the charging system or any other electrical considerations. 3 ring terminals onto the battery lugs. that's it.

if you think that is 'modifying' the electrical system, then i can't help you.

... saying that installing a equalizer to run off the 24 volt does modify the stock electrical system is simply a lie. ...

saying that you have the cognitive skills to understand how the equalizer is installed is simply a lie.

since you don't know me from Adam, i highly suggest post-poning the 'keyboard-bravery' and call someone a liar to their face.


i get tired of everytime someone posts a question about different ways to do something and wants to compare convenience and cost alternatives, someone else has to interject and talk down certain options for the sole sake of hawking their own crap to sell, all the while stating baised and often incorrect points of view.

i'm pretty sure that's against the beloved rules - please hawk your chit in the classifieds.

 

[tm america]

again - you guys need to study the diagram. the equalizer is simply connected to the battery terminals. period. nothing is attached to the alternator, nothing is 'spliced', nothing is interupted. the only thing it does is moderate the voltage between the two batteries completely seperate of the charging system or any other electrical considerations. 3 ring terminals onto the battery lugs. that's it.

if the 24 volt alt supplies power to it in anyway the 24volt system is modified.If it's wires are connected to the battery that is connected to the 24 volt alt it effects the 24volt system and thus the 24 volt system is modified.Twist it how ever you want .It is the same ..
So i guess you gonna tell me that running a 30 amp draw for a winch off of the battery lug on the first battery isn't modding the electrical system either. and won't hurt anything cuz it's wired to the battery ...You speak alot about your intellegence when you type..

 

[tm america]

I had one 6TL reverse polarity while in my truck. I couldn't figure out why I got 0 volts in series and 12 volts separately. I was using a digital meter and I never look at the polarity, just the reading. After about a minute it came to me, you'd think I had one connected backwards but that wasn't the case. It started the truck 3 weeks before.

The Hawkers turned over the engine for more than 10 total minutes, without being charged for more than a year and still starts the vehicle with not enough running time to charge em back up. I would keep em charged but the new owner doesn't bother.

The only hard part was done by my wife, she had to do a one arm shoulder press, the other hand for stability, to hand them up to me. Nice having a strong wife

You better get an ok from the wife before buying any more hawkers... Sounds like shes someone you wouldn't want made at you..I had a deka battery in my wheeling truck that had a 1.5 inch hole in the side of if near the bottom..The thing started the truck fine for like three years .. i couldn't believe it..batteries can do some crazy things

 

[mudguppy]

..So i guess you gonna tell me that running a 30 amp draw for a winch off of the battery lug on the first battery isn't modding the electrical system either. and won't hurt anything cuz it's wired to the battery ...

yeah, 'cause that's just like how the equalizer works. schooled me on that one.

...You speak alot about your intellegence when you type..

intelligence.

now can you spell 'ironic'?


you're right George, about everything.

hey, everyone: go buy George's stuff. it's super cheap (but i'm sure it's the hi-quality China alternators). and, as George mentioned, the entire 12V sytem (alternator brackets, belts, alternator, wiring, battery, etc) can be installed in 10 minutes. no other option is as good as this one. none.

 

[tm america]

Every way to add 12 volts has good and bad.to try to act like one way doesn't have any draw backs is crazy,to say something that is less than true about a product you don't own and have not installed would ussually count as a liar in my book

 

[mudguppy]

... to say something that is less than true about a product you don't own and have not installed would ussually count as a liar in my book

couldn't have said it better myself.


and that's twice now.

 

[Stalwart]

PS, I hope you have better luck with the "Yellow Tops" than I did! Mine made it less than a year before one puked in the HEMTT. I went with some Group 31 Marine batteries from Costco, never a problem. I've never had a Optima last, I hope yours do. I've had a total of 7 so far . . . 6 in MV's, one in a car.

 

[Stalwart]

My first Optima I bought was in 1993 for a Ferrari Testarossa I was using daily. As long as I was driving it daily, it did fine, once it started sitting a week or two at a time it failed within 6 months (internal short). I walked away from them for about 15 years and came back thinking they must have been improved by then. I put them in the Fox and Scorpion (NOT easy battery changes!!!!) and even though the batteries have switches to take away ground, and I charged then every month to full capacity, they only lasted about 1.5 years until I couldn't get them to hold a charge. If I used a charger that had dual 12V outputs and charged each battery independently, they lasted a bit longer, but not much. If they work for you in your application, by all means stick with them. I'm no zealot!

Every conventional lead-acid battery battery I've tried to recover with a pulse charger for desulfating batteries (not solargizer) have come back to perhaps 80% and remained servacible, even up to 6-7 years old, a few well beyond that. I use a charger with a desulfating circuit at least every 6 months and leave them connected from a few days to a week.

My Scorpion now has a dual output 12 charger permanently mounted and has given me good battery life.

I make no money nor have any interest in any of the products below, nor do I have an interest in the seller, other than that as a happy customer:

My favorite vehicle mounted independent 12V output for charging 24V systems:

ChargeTek 500-2, Single output 24 volt, 3A

My favorite for desulfating batteries, I've used both 12 and 24V varieties:

12V: Battery Minder Odyssey BM12248-Odyssey | BatteryMinder 12v 2/4/8 Amp Battery Charger Desulphator

24V: BatteryMinder 24 volt 1/2/4 amp

NOTE: Northern Tools often has a sale on these 2 immediately above.

My favorite 24V charger, I use a NATO slave cable end to allow easy movement from vehicle to vehicle:

Interacter PS 24 Volt 8 Amp

NOTE: The above charger is a real chunk or metal and power supply, VERY heavy duty and gives a very good visual indicator of charge rate. I really don't see EVER having to replace this, unless I run over it, mine is more than 10 years old now.

I haven't tried this charger that is maximized for Optima batteries yet, IF I get another Optima (or a Hawker) I MAY try as I like their chargers:

Battery Minder Odyssey BM12248-Odyssey | BatteryMinder 12v 2/4/8 Amp Battery Charger Desulphator

NONE of the above chargers is "cheap" especially the 24V 8A 3 stage charger. Can you spend less and get equal performance? I dunno, but I have thrown out a LOT of chargers over the years and never one of these. They have ALL given me good service, I have had no failures and all have charged and or desulphonated my batteries. The only problem I've has is with the 24V 8A blowing fuses if I try to start the truck with the charger connected. I just disconnect before starting or I'll be replacing the 6A fuse, the new ones have a circuit that they say prevents this.

Sorry for the book.

PS I still haven't hooked up my battery equalizer but that should be a project after the last event of the year, Veterans Day Parade.

 

[tm america]

I've had great luck with the dual purpose blue top batteries from autozone..They act like a deep cycle but can charge like a normal battery.. They have top mount posts and threaded posts like a deep cycle.. They are around 100 each but they take a beating

 

[Stalwart]

Jim,

Please consider charging each battery independently (no need to disconnect cables) every 3-4 months with a 12V charger you trust. It will go a LONG way keeping the batteries balanced. Once imbalanced, your charger and alternator will kill them both.

 

[plym49]

Does this look right?


I forgot to illustrate ground cable for 12v batteries to truck...but aside from that...is that how it would hook up?

This thread is faitry old, so perhaps you no longer need a reply to this specific question. Since, however, the thread seemed to take a certain direction, and I do not remember seeing a specific response to the diagram you posted, I thought I would take a shot.

If you connect two batteries in parallel, the 'stronger' battery will try to recarge the 'weaker' one. If both batteries are exactly the same, and remain that way, the effect would be minimal. In practice though over time you probably would be losing charge from one battery to the other.

I am not sure where you ended up, as there were several options offered. But, if you are indeed working with four batteries, why not then 2 24 volt systems? Two equalizers (flame on). This would give you complete redundancy and flexibility. A switchover can connect either bank to your Deuce's stock generator.

 

[rebel_raider]

Would this be a feasible option?

 

[Stalwart]

Rebel, the image is SOOOOOOO small I' can't be absolutely certain but it looks like you just paralleled 4 12V batteries to make . . . 12V. But just in case, you can't sneak up on it and magically wire the same batteries in series and parallel at the same time. There are series/parallel switches in some over the road trucks to give the starter 24V. They give 12V or 24V, NEVER both at the same instant.

 

[rebel_raider]

I tried to go back and make it bigger, but it's still kinda small. What I drew was 1 battery coming off of each battery of the 24V system with those 2 batteries being paralleled to a bus bar. My thought was this would have your 12V load drawing equally from both of the batteries in the 24V system.

 

[Stalwart]

You did great on the resize, not small at all now. OK, your "stock 24" is wired wrong, they are all wired in parallel. That part must look like this:

You CANNOT do this with wires and have it balance, no amount of creative wiring will get you where you want to go. You will need some electronics of some kind: 12V alternator, 24V ==> 12V convertor or battery equalizer.

 

[rebel_raider]

My proofreading skills have failed me this morning. I have now gone back and corrected my original drawing.

Can you elaborate on why this would still create an imbalance, Stalwart? I'm not trying to be a smart aleck, just trying to learn.

 

[Stalwart]

I know you're not trying to be a smart alec nor difficult. Look at your labled "buss bars" and look beyond the accessory batteries. Look how they attach to the truck batteries that are in series. If you trace the leads back you'll see that the buss bars connect the positive and negative of your truck batteries into a direct short. Smoke, and flames will be the result. I'll open a drawing program and show you what you're missing, give me a few minutes. You are not the only one to have thought this up, I did to in my earlier years as well and discovered my folly. At least you took the time to make a diagram!

Follow the path I scribbled and you'll see you have a direct short, no amount of fancy wiring can overcome this.

Also the same can be seen on the other battery but I didn't want to confuse you with my poorly made pathways.

 

[rebel_raider]

Well darn! Here I thought I had a good idea.

Here's another one for you: If I took out the bus bar it would work then right? I would have no way of the keeping the load balanced, though, therefore ruining what I was trying to accomplish. "You can't get there from here" in other words.

 

[Stalwart]

Take out the buss bars and you have 4-12V batteries in series-parallel. My HEMTT and most other big trucks are wired this way for high amperage 24V. You still cannot tap 12 off that and not have an imbalance.

The 24v to 12v convertors I've seen have an output of 13.8 or so volts so they would keep a 3rd battery charged and give you your 12v supply. You only need the battery for higher amperage draw beyong the convertors capacity (short term) although I like a battery in there as a buffer, it can be a small one. This is the cheapest option. Be warned, I have a highly rated and kinda expensive one of these in my truck and it's dead. Basically a $550-800 pretty looking piece of junk. Electrical - Power Converters - NEWMAR 32-12-35 DC-DC CONVERTR - Discount Yacht Supplies, Vetus Nautical Accessories, Scandvik Parts, Garmin Marine Electronics

The other affordable option is the battery equalizer that will allow you to tap 12v off the battery hooked to chassis ground and otherwise keep the batteries balanced. I've seen these on eBay for less than $100 for new ones, but you must be patient, some seem to think used ones at $400-500 is a deal. If you want to go that route set up a saved search with daily emails for something like: vanner battery (I don't use equalizer in the search since some people spell it differently).