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12v supply on 24v house battery setup.

ramdough

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Had an idea the other day….

I am planning on building my own 24v battery banks out of individual lithium 300ah cells.

I originally planned to have a 24-12v converter to supply my 12v accessories.

But, my lift bed will use a 12v utility winch. That can pull a lot more amps.

I am wondering if it makes sense to have one bank set up as dual 12v banks then use a balancer to keep it healthy. I would divide my loads between the two batteries. Then when I need more amps for a short duration, the balancer would correct that over time. That dual bank would be charged in parallel to the other 24v batteries.

Thoughts?


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TechnoWeenie

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I ran through all this years ago.

Keep it 24V - You can charge from the alternator.

Skip the DIY liFepo4 - commercial systems are dirt cheap these days. Whether you go rackmount or decided to series/parallel 12V batteries, the minimal cost savings doing it yourself isn't worth it.

Get a 24V winch.

Most 12V lights and whatnot will run on 24V when in series.

For daily items like phone chargers, lights, etc you can easily find inexpensive multi-volt (~9-30V) devices.

For things that have to run off 12V, as you mentioned, a 24->12V converter is the way to go. They're usually 95-98% efficient.

The only 12V thing planned in my system is 12V because it has to be.... a specialty piece of equipment that would cost a couple grand to get in 24V vs the existing 12V version I have...and that's gonna be through a converter.


Way too many 24V+ options out there to need to limit yourself to 12V.

Plus, for the larger current items, like inverters or winches, you can run much smaller wire.
 

ramdough

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The winch I am looking at is the smallest 2k warn winch for trailers ~$120

It is only lifting a bed.

All of the 24v ones I have found are for pulling trucks out….. way too big, too heavy, and too much power.

My primary batteries are going to be 24vdc, I am just thinking of doing like our trucks use where you have two 12v in series for my higher load item (the winch). I would use a balancer to keep the bank balanced.

As far as DIY batteries, I can get a bigger battery than battle born for less than 1/3. I am not sure what batteries you are comparing to, but would love to see some links.


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TechnoWeenie

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Who said anything about battleborn? They're overpriced.

Right now, LifePo4 batteries are going for less than $300 for 12V@100AH, 200AH 24VDC rack mounts with all the bells and whistles are going for ~$1200

---
^^
$240 - $12 coupon = $228
Can support up to 4s4p. 2s4p would be 24V@400AH = 9.6KW
---

$1259

---

I'll probably be going rackmount, only because I want at least 20KW.

---


Again - think outside the box.

Get 2 small 12V ATV winches for less than $100 ea.... run them in series... off 24V.


or look elsewhere for a basic winch..


Or instead of a raised bed, go with a murphy bed...
 
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serpico760

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Had an idea the other day….

I am planning on building my own 24v battery banks out of individual lithium 300ah cells.

I originally planned to have a 24-12v converter to supply my 12v accessories.

But, my lift bed will use a 12v utility winch. That can pull a lot more amps.

I am wondering if it makes sense to have one bank set up as dual 12v banks then use a balancer to keep it healthy. I would divide my loads between the two batteries. Then when I need more amps for a short duration, the balancer would correct that over time. That dual bank would be charged in parallel to the other 24v batteries.

Thoughts?


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Check out this guy's channel he does really good testing and tear Downs of these batteries to see which one is actual quality and which ones are junk
 

ramdough

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Check out this guy's channel he does really good testing and tear Downs of these batteries to see which one is actual quality and which ones are junk
Yup….. he is one of the reasons I am thinking of building my own battery. I think I can get a 300ah x 24v battery complete for around $1,000….. so cheaper and 50% more capacity.


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serpico760

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Yup….. he is one of the reasons I am thinking of building my own battery. I think I can get a 300ah x 24v battery complete for around $1,000….. so cheaper and 50% more capacity.


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That's about the same configuration of battery bank I was thinking. And a 3,000 w 24 volt inverter charger
 

VPed

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Why not have one 12v battery recharged with a converter for those loads. Do what works best for you on the 24v system I have a 12v setup on my deuce but I went with dual alternators for recharge.
 

ramdough

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That's about the same configuration of battery bank I was thinking. And a 3,000 w 24 volt inverter charger
Well, I plan a couple of those battery banks until I have enough to run my AC off of it. But when you are talking that kind of AH, saving as you go pays off.

I am also leaving room for two inverters in case one does not supply enough for all my stuff.


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chucky

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Im curious just what your wanting to power with that much system ? 2 agm 4D give you 500ah and all of us seem to be using led and low drag equipment and 1000 wt solar supply on top should hold any truck for a WHILE unless your running night time welding shop !
If you have the truck alt tied / switched to feed your house batteries and your generator do the same youve got 3 independent ways to make power /plus shore power in some occasions ! So 3 of your sources are back up to any 1 thing down say your truck alt dies now the house batteries will power the truck to drive or the generator to feed the house batt.

Redundancy is the name of the game and if you dont build it with stuff that you can get at lowes/homedepot/walmart when in a bind your days are numberd !
 

TechnoWeenie

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2 agm 4D give you 500ah
No it doesn't.

4D is generally 200AH, not 250...

AND....only half of that is usable..
AND..... AGMs are on par, price-wise, with LiFePo4.
AND.... 2x 4Ds weigh ~234lbs for 200AH usable..
AND.... 2x Lifepo4 weigh ~48lbs for 200AH usable..
AND...Lifepo4 can recharge quicker..
 
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chucky

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No it doesn't.

4D is generally 200AH, not 250...

AND....only half of that is usable..
AND..... AGMs are on par, price-wise, with LiFePo4.
AND.... 2x 4Ds weigh ~234lbs for 200AH usable..
AND.... 2x Lifepo4 weigh ~48lbs for 200AH usable..
AND...Lifepo4 can recharge quicker..
MINE ARE 249 ah A PIECE on the sticker on top ad they are heavy but they dont seem that heavy i had to pick em up and set them over in the tub under the rear bed ! Im just trying to enlighten all the folks that dont have 20 grand to put in a electrical system that theyre gona use on rare occasions ! I dont know your background but mine has spent 30 plus years 11 mo a year feeding 17 televisions 2 full stereo systems lights fridge freezer microwaves roof airs on 2 agm 4d batteries with up to 12 folks demanding some kind of electrical entertainment so i know this system works hands down day after day and its the same recipe in 1500 to 2k tour busses going up and down the road every day and all the bus builders could use any system they wanted money no object and they still use this one ! So if you want overspend be my guest !
 
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TechnoWeenie

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MINE ARE 249 ah A PIECE on the sticker on top ad they are heavy but they dont seem that heavy i had to pick em up and set them over in the tub under the rear bed ! Im just trying to enlighten all the folks that dont have 20 grand to put in a electrical system that theyre gona use on rare occasions ! I dont know your background but mine has spent 30 plus years 11 mo a year feeding 17 televisions 2 full stereo systems lights fridge freezer microwaves roof airs on 2 agm 4d batteries with up to 12 folks demanding some kind of electrical entertainment so i know this system works hands down day after day and its the same recipe in 1500 to 2k tour busses going up and down the road every day and all the bus builders could use any system they wanted money no object and they still use this one ! So if you want overspend be my guest !
OK, even if they're 250AH, they're still only gonna be rated to 50% DoD (Depth of Discharge) for full life. Most are rated at 80% DoD MAX, but at significantly lower life.

In addition, Lifepo4 have cycle lives in the 3000-5000 range, whereas AGMs are only rated for ~1K cycles MAX with most being 400-800 cycles.

You don't have to spend $20K.. In fact, as mentioned, they're price equivalent with AGM and provide longer life, and more usable power.

So, as mentioned, even BEST case scenario, 500AH of AGM is only gonna get you 400AH of usage... and that's BEST case... and assuming you're OK doing permanent damage to the battery.

That same 400AH of LifePo? Full 400AH is usable with no damage, and would set you back ~$1200.....all the while lasting for 5-10x more charge/discharge cycles.



In fact, speaking of Will Prowse, he did a review on some Black Friday specials...




The only caveat with Lifepo4 vs AGM is BMS in Lifepo4 is usually only rated to 1C, in other words, 100AH battery can deliver around 100A, whereas an AGM can dump more than that. They also don't like being charged below zero, so you need a BMS or charge controller that won't allow charging below freezing, or, what most people do, is keep batteries inside and/or use a battery heater, which doesn't take much power.



As far as my background goes?

Over a decade as an emergency vehicle upfitter, installing lights/sirens/communications, and yes, auxiliary battery systems. Multiple FCC licenses including working on tower site equipment that has, you guessed it, emergency backup systems, with mixed genset/batt backup.

I won't use that as part of my argument though, as it's argumentum ad verecundiam, or 'argument from authority'.. Anything I type is easily backed up with data/facts, so I don't need to bring my background into things.


Up until a couple years ago, you'd be right in going AGM, and in some odd cases, AGM might still be the best option... But now, with cost being the lowest it has ever been, and quality and availability being so high, along with the other benefits I mentioned like weight, cycle life, depth of discharge (usable power), etc. it's a no-brainer to go LiFePo4.

If you're comparing an $800 BattleBorn battery to a $250 AGM battery, well, yeah, duh... But you don't need to spend $800 on a single lithium battery these days.
 

ckouba

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I have a 24 > 12 volt converter that I turned on a long time ago and haven't shut off. Basically zero draw on the system until it's used. I know it's using something but I can tell you empirically that it's right there next to nothing. There's very little downside to using it.
 

ramdough

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I have a 24 > 12 volt converter that I turned on a long time ago and haven't shut off. Basically zero draw on the system until it's used. I know it's using something but I can tell you empirically that it's right there next to nothing. There's very little downside to using it.
Which one do you use?


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ckouba

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Victron 70A 24>12 converter:


I leave my batteries on and the converter powered up (haven't shut it off since turning it on). It literally draws nothing unless there's a load on it, i.e. I can go out to the camper after it sits for days and the SOC is still 100% and at full voltage (parked under a carport and not plugged into shore power, FYI). The hardware is completely invisible to me.
 
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