440 Dodge w/727 Deuce

[McGuyver]

So is the new number a Mopar part number I've got to get from the dealership, or is available at NAPA? Also, I wasn't entirely clear on this point, the new bushing design, does it or does it not require a shorter input shaft on the transmission? Or is the bushing surface on the input shaft sufficiently long enough that the new bushing doesn't hit the splined section? (assuming that the new bushing protrudes from the crank a little further.)

 

[clinto]

53009180AB is the Mopar #. Although you can go to any Chrysler dealer and order it, I am sure there is an aftermarket variant available now. If your local parts house can't cross the OEM #, tell them it is any 1990's Magnum V8, like a 1995 5.2. This is also the same as the Jeep 4.0 I believe (I googled the OEM part # and a bunch of Jeep forums came up).

I think they are pretty cheap from the dealer, I'd probably do that just to save the hassle.

On the shorter input shaft, that's more iffy.

Pretty much any forged crank Mopar already has a hole in the back of the crank. The issue is whether it was reamed to the correct dimension for a pilot bushing. As long as it has the hole, the stock (read: un-cut) input shaft will work. I have pulled apart literally dozens of 340, 383 and 440 Mopar A, B and E bodies and every one of them that had a forged crank (which was pretty much everything pre-72) already had a hole and the majority were already reamed.

The issue is when the cast cranks starting coming in. That's when it became more prevalent to not have any hole at all.

if the hole is drilled but not reamed, you are good to go. Just get the modern pilot bearing and run. if there is no hole at all, either drill the crank or cut off the nose of the input shaft.

The bushing surface of the input shaft has plenty of room before the splines begin. You can lose the first 1-2" and still have plenty of room for the modern bearing to ride on before the splines begin. See image below.

 

[Elwenil]

Part number 53009180AB is $13.00 List at the dealer per Mopar's pricing. If you guys need any Mopar part related info, let me know as I'm sitting here in the Parts Dept all day long anyway, lol.

 

[rizzo]

is there a different thermostat for motorhome engines? I have a 413 out of a motorhome and it is different than the car 413. Luke has the same thing except in 440

 

[Elwenil]

What years are we talking, Rizzo? There are a few oddities in the Motorhome engines with the cooling systems, but I'd need a year model to get anything specific.

 

[rizzo]

What years are we talking, Rizzo? There are a few oddities in the Motorhome engines with the cooling systems, but I'd need a year model to get anything specific.

my BB 413 was a 1971 I think. Can't remember the name. If you had a choice I could pick it out. I'm having a cooling problem, but I think it is because I am using a "escort" fan and just need a bigger fan. I am using the stock motorhome radiator. this motor has the big cooling system on it.

 

[McGuyver]

Thanks Clinto, that helps a lot. Thanks for the pictures especially. By the way, do you happen to have a picture of the new needle bearing installed in the crank, versus an old style bushing? I would be interested in how they compare. The 440 I have in my M880 is a `76 block with a cast crank. If memory serves me correctly, I believe it did have the unreamed hole in it. I've often thought that it would be nice to mate an NP435 to it or a later NV4500 five speed. This was the only thing stopping me, since I didin't want to have to go to the trouble of drilling the crank. Thanks for the heads up!

 

[Elwenil]

Here's the 53009180AB bearing for the Magnum engines. As you can see it is designed to fit in the recess for the torque converter hub. I didn't post the pilot bushing because I'm sure we all know what the old bronze bushing looks like.

 

[McGuyver]

Wow, those proportions make it look bigger than I thought. thanks for the pics Elwenil. Does it protrude out from the torque converter a little bit? It looks as though it may by as much as a 1/4". So guys, are there any other gotchas I've got to look out for in order to do this swap? I found a mid `70's 1/2 ton with a 400 BB and an NP435 in the wrecking yard that may be a good candidate for this. I can get the transmission, bell housing, flywheel, pedals and linkage, (basically everything) for $125 if I do the labor, or $250 if the guys at the yard do. Although the tranny itself looks like it could be iffy (the shifter rod pulled out of the casing while I was inspecting it) the other parts seem like they may be worth it for those prices. What do you think? Here's another question: I know the torque converter on the automatic has balancing weights on it, will the flywheel for the manual tranny have the proper balancing for an engine that was formerly mated to an auto tranny?

 

[clinto]

is there a different thermostat for motorhome engines? I have a 413 out of a motorhome and it is different than the car 413. Luke has the same thing except in 440

I do not believe the thermostat is different, but the water pump housings are. See:

http://www.440source.com/wpumphousings.htm

What years are we talking, Rizzo? There are a few oddities in the Motorhome engines with the cooling systems, but I'd need a year model to get anything specific.

I have never messed with '72-up stuff much, mostly because all my stuff has been 4 speed and therefore needed a forged crank, but I believe the difference with motorhome engines is the water pump housing and heads.

But beginning I believe in 1975, the decks (and heads!!!!) changed in regards to the coolant passages. For many years, it was believed the big blocks with the different castings were the motorhome or industrial engines, but I think the hobby has recognized that all the 75-up 440's are this way. The industrial engines do have restrictions in the exhaust port that make them unsuitable for high performance duty. See deck pictures below.

By the way, do you happen to have a picture of the new needle bearing installed in the crank, versus an old style bushing? ..............The 440 I have in my M880 is a `76 block with a cast crank.

Looked but I don't have a pic. I may have a slide somewhere I shot before I had a digital, but I'd have to scan it. My last 440 and the last Hemi I had both had the late style pilot bearing, I prefer it to the bushing.

Does it protrude out from the torque converter a little bit?

A bit, not much.

I know the torque converter on the automatic has balancing weights on it, will the flywheel for the manual tranny have the proper balancing for an engine that was formerly mated to an auto tranny?

The flywheel should have the external balance holes drilled in it if it is off a cast crank big block and I am 99% sure they are all the same balance amount, but you should verify that. If you mean "Is the balance amt. the same for auto and stick?" the answer is yes.

If you do not have a flywheel, the Mopar Performance Chassis Manual has the specs on how much to drill for the balance issue.

 

[Elwenil]

I wouldn't worry too much about the shifter pulling out of the tranny. That's pretty common on the New Process 435 and 445 transmissions. The problem is the spring loaded cap that is a push down and turn to lock kind of deal and when it gets worn, it will pop out of place and the shifter will come out in your hand. No biggie, just hold it down when you shift until you can get to the dealer and pick up a part number 1936220 Retainer for a whopping $6.10 and replace it.

Like Clinto said, there's not much to getting the right flywheel. If the engine required a torque converter with neutral balance, like most forged crank big blocks and 318/340s, the you get a flywheel with neutral balance. If you had something like a 360, then you would need an odd balanced flywheel specifically for it just like the matching torque converter.

Most of the truck flywheels are for a typical 11" clutch, I really like the Centerforce Dual Friction, probably the best clutch I've ever had and I'm a big fan of the old heavy duty style Borg and Beck clutches.

 

[carguy455]

Fresh kill !

Hey I just got this 440RB and 727 out of a 72 Winnebeago. Are THESE the exhaust manifolds you need ??? Water pump housing ?

This engine is destined for my 74 Charger project so all the industrial parts are for sale.

 

[abh3]

My guess is those MH versions, especially the left, exhaust manifolds would be a better fit than what I'm using now. But the welding has been done so I am where I am! But don't ever throw away B-RB Dodge stuff, they ain't makin' no more! My kids are all at friends houses tonight so I'll be rebuilding my driveshaft with any luck and no distractions... I'll take care and check runout while on the lathe this time!!! Duh.

Yes, the tailshaft on these 727s are long, the short ones hard to find and I didn't want to do a transfer case swap too. The auto is another reason for the swap, so I can sip a barley-pop and drive through the woods at the same time without rowing the stick... A 'B' motor might be a little narrower (I know the int. manifolds are different) but this whole thing is an exercise in using what I have in my toybox (junkpile?) and not hunting parts all over the countryside. I'm shooting for a quiet, self-shifting duece for low speed operation on rolling hills type timberland trails and firebreaks of our land in NW Florida and L.A. (Lower Alabama)... I even know which picnic table and cooler I'll swipe off the porch to put in the bed!

Whoever mentioned (joked?) about putting a genset on the firewall isn't alone there, it has been suggested I get a mini gas generator for that very location so as to bring a fridge, TV, massage-chair, karoke machine or whatever the heck my buddies think is really needed in the woods! I suspect an inverter would make more sense...

This is the cast crank 440 out of a New Yorker (via my '84 Ram) with a mild cam, Holley and aluminum intake, I figure it will have the torque for the job. I'm afraid any high revving will work on the Duece air-compressor so it will be a low end operation. If I go back into the 440 I might consider degreeing the cam for more torque (advanced I think).

Thanks for all the input so far and BUILD IT WITH WHAT YA GOT!

Benton

 

[M543A2]

Steel crank 440's are internally balanced, forged crank motors are externally balanced. Some heavy trucks have 413's in them with bell, clutch, and truck transmission that might work for you. It will be shorter that the 727.
Regards Marti

 

[rizzo]

we have found 3 different sizes on the 727. the long one almost doesnt fit

 

[carguy455]

So how did the 440 truck turn out ??

 

[abh3]

So far it's turned out OK, I still haven't gotten a good driveshaft on it or mufflers so it's just thundering up and down my long drive once in a while... Things are a little chaotic around here, it's the old time thing we all suffer from!

I've decided that the best thing to do in the long term is to install the shorter transmision tailshaft/output for a better driveline angles and build a proper driveshaft then. I've been trying to source these parts but have had no luck. Does anyone know of the applications of these shorter transmissions? While the trans is apart to refit, I'll throw in a rebuild kit, it's cheap insurance...

 

[Elwenil]

74 and earlier 4x4s and oddly enough, some aircraft tugs have the shortest tailshaft of any I have seen but I can't remember if they are 727s or 904s. I want to say they were all 727s. It will be attached to a slant 6, but the internals should swap to a big block housing. I want to say that there is a truck in the 80s that used one also, but I can't recall.

 

[abh3]

Thanks for the info... I also suspect that those applications would just about HAVE to be the 727, I've only seen 904s in light duty use. Time to hit the local junk guys! Luckily, Eglin AFB is close by, I bet there are some scrap tugs around here waiting to be unearthed...

The truck models you mention must have the old style 'divorced' T-case, I had a '67 D250 like that but it was a stick. Do those 727s have a 'slip joint' or some kind of flange output?

I've got three of four 727s lying around but they all have that looong output arrangement!

Thanks again...

 

[Elwenil]

Yeah, they are divorced case models like the two '74 models I had, but they were both 4 speeds also. All the really short shaft autos I have seen, I think had a yoke on the shaft. I might be wrong on that, I haven't seen but one or two out of a vehicle. I also remember a 2WD 4 door D200 that was a 4 speed that had the same NP435 that my W200 had so it is possible that maybe they had the short 727 also, but that's just a guess.